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Subject: TML Bundle #291: Msgs 3585-3594
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Date: Wed Jan 29 21:00:51 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #291: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3585  28-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Naval vessels << IMO a game like Traveller ne
3586  28-Jan-92 richard@agora.rai Re: A Challenge To You All |-} << :Bertil's i
3587  29-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Naval vessels << > From: Hans Rancke-Mads
3588  29-Jan-92 kirsch@rhea.infor 3 designes and questions to COACC and Hard Ti
3589  29-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha more Hard Times and a challenge << IRT 3584 A
3590  29-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Re: (3585) Naval vessels << Hans Rancke write
3591  29-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha obsolete junk... << In reference to the const
3592  29-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Re: (3571) TL high infantry... << In your let
3593  29-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha IRT Navy ships << Hans Rancke-Madsen writes: 
3594  29-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Naval Vessels in Traveller << Hans made a

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3585
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Naval vessels
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 22:32:16 MET


IMO a game like Traveller needs both rich, secure, civilized places with
an economy that makes it possible for player characters to acquire a
starship and lonely, wild places where the thug and the privateer roam
and the only law is the one in your laser cannon.

Also IMO you'll be a bit short of the second type of place in a universe
where a single high-population world can finance enough naval vessels to
put a squadron of Azhantis in every starsystem in a subsector  -  at least
not when you have two or three high-pop worlds per subsector on the average.

You can of course make the pirates tough enough to deal with Azhantis, but
that rather defeats the purpose. A pirate should be a threat to player
characters, true, but it should be a survivable threat.

(You can of course give the player characters a ship that is equal to a
pirate that is tough enough to deal with Azhantis. That will give them a
crew of several hundred NPCs to deal with... ;-)

There's two ways to attack this problem: You can reduce the money each
world contributes to the navy, and you can reduce the amount of ship the
navy gets for each credit. I'm working on something wrt the first approach,
but in this posting I'd like to present some of my ideas for the second and
would like to hear your comments.

1) SALARIES: _Trillion Credit Squadron_ instructs us to ignore crew salaries.
   I'd rather regard it as a legitimate drain on the naval budget. After all,
   money spent on salaries can't be spent on ships too. Civilian crew sala-
   ries runs from 6000 Cr/year to 40.000/year or more, so an average salary
   of 20-25.000 Crimp/year dosen't seem excessive. If we furthermore look on
   each shipboard crew position as representing two or three or perhaps even
   four persons  -  the rest being trainees, trainers, planetside staff
   etc.  -  and also include the cost and maintenance of all planetside
   installations, then it won't be too much to say that each shipboard crew
   position cost 100.000 Crimp/year. This will increase the effective cost of
   each ship by 1 MCrimp per crew position (including marines). (Each credit
   cut out of the yearly budget will mean 10 credits less to the initial
   investment).

2) INERTIAL COMPENSATORS: I'd like to increase the size and power
   requirements of inertial compensators to be proportional to the
   acceleration they are supposed to compensate for. Civilian ships
   usually makes do with a 1G manouver drive, so they wouldn't be
   affected, but a naval ship with a 4G drive would need 4 times the
   amount of compensators it needs today. My (still untested) rule
   would go something like this:

   The amount of inertial compensators needed by a ship varies with
   the capacity of it's manouver drive. The data shown is for a
   ship with a 1G drive. Multiply this by the G value of the ship
   manouver drive.

   Power  Volume  Weight  Price   Units
   0.020  0.010   0.020   250 Cr  per kiloliter of hull.

   Variant 1: Multiply by 1.25 the G value (the compensators need to be
              able to handle a switch from full ahead to 1/4 astern).

   Variant 2: Multiply by twice the G value (the compensators need to be
              able to handle a switch from full ahead to full astern).


3) PSIONIC SHIELDING: Despite the known limits of psionic powers
   (maximum range extreme orbit), no naval commander would like
   to bet his ship on that. Who can be sure that some freaks can't
   perform at longer ranges? In any case ships often engage at
   less than extreme orbit range (that's 5 million km, after all).
   Ships up against the Zhodanis will be shielded as a matter of
   course, but other ships will be too, even those up against the
   Imperium or the Solomani Confederation, regardless of the
   prevailing stance against psionics in both states. What is that
   to people who uses the word 'threat' about capability instead of
   intention? What military mind would trust an opponent to refrain
   from using psionic adepts, regardless of what line said opponent
   feeds his own civilians? Thus naval ships will be psionically
   shielded "just in case".

   I've tentatively put the cost of psionic shielding equivalent to
   that of electronic masking. Tech level is 12.

   Power  Volume  Weight  Price    Units
   0.001  0.020   0.010   5000 Cr  per kiloliter of hull.

   One question here is what the shielding actually shields against. A
   psionic shield helmet prevents thoughts being read by creating an elec-
   trical field that interferes with brainwave frequencies. Shielding a
   ship in the same way will be easy. But will such a field stop tele-
   portation too? If not, will anything shield against teleportation? IMO
   a naval ship _must_ be either be teleport-shielded or have a large
   number of internal security troops. Imagine the trouble a squad of
   battle-suited marines could do after teleporting aboard a battleship.
   Talk about cost-efficiency!

   My own inclination is to say that a brainwave shield will interfere
   with the targeting aspect of teleportation and will thus protect
   against it.


4) DURABILITY: Tactically this reliance on annual maintenance is not a
   good thing. If a war is just 5 jumps away from a naval vessel's base,
   it will be travelling to a from annual maintenance 3 months out of
   every year. Nor is it very good strategically, since it restricts
   the size of the fleet you can concentrate anywhere to the capacity
   of the local shipyards. I propose two things here: Firstly some
   maintenance tasks that the ship engineers can perform, that will keep
   the ship flying without negative DMs. Perhaps rolled quarterly and
   increasing one level in difficulty for each full year since last
   overhaul. A good engineer should be able to keep a ship flying for two
   or three years before the negative DMs for missed overhauls actually
   began to apply. (No, this will not mean that ships can get away with
   only bi-yearly overhauls. For every year since the last overhaul a ship
   would need to spend two weeks on the next. Thus a ship could skip the
   overhaul one year in an emergency, but it would have to pay twice the
   amount next year).

   Secondly allow a ship to be build with more durable materials and
   higher system redundancies, if one is willing to pay. Perhaps one
   extra year for each 25% extra money spent. (The ship would still
   two weeks overhaul for each year since the last one, but a +25%
   ship could get spend 4 weeks every other year instead of 2 weeks
   every year (or should the ship get away with a two week overhaul?))

   Naval vessels would routinely be build for 5 year missions ;-), so
   they would cost double the price of an equivalent civilian ship.


Well, what do you think?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3586
From: richard@agora.rain.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Re: A Challenge To You All  |-}
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 14:19:12 EST


:Bertil's idea of the planet of left shoes and egg spoons gave me an idea...
etc.
:=)

Let me stew on that a little while.  I'm still recovering from Colin's
Hilbert Space story.
- -- 
Richard Johnson     richard@agora.rain.com
"We've learned a great deal about how to keep the American people
pacified."   Ex-CIA director William Colby after the Church hearings

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3587
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Naval vessels
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 92 7:30:32 MET

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: (3585) Naval vessels
> 
> There's two ways to attack this problem: You can reduce the money each
> world contributes to the navy, and you can reduce the amount of ship the
> navy gets for each credit. I'm working on something wrt the first approach,
> but in this posting I'd like to present some of my ideas for the second and
> would like to hear your comments.
 
  I'd favour the second approach: Finding ways of increasing the cost of
military ships without increasing the cost of civilian ships.

  This will, if done right, also cure another problem: The dilemma of 
30kt freighters and 30kt light cruisers. We all know that the Imperium need
a lot of 30kt freighters for the commerce to work. We also know that if it
is that easy to build 30kt ships we will get too many cruisers for the
pirates to handle. We also know that each one of those 30kt freighters can
mount a horrifying fire-power compared to a 400t corsair.

*********
  What I'd like the Traveller universe to be is a place where traders on up
to 200kt, and fleet tankers of even larger tonnages are common, but where 
these ships have at most a handful of turrets and where a 'battleship' is
somewhere on the order 20-30kt (destroyers: around 1 to 3kt, cruisers around
10kt, carriers around 30kt, but lightly armed).
  
  What do people think about this goal?
*********

> 1) SALARIES: _Trillion Credit Squadron_ instructs us to ignore crew salaries.

  Fortunately I didn't know this when I did the Naasakiira defences. IMHO this
is ludicrous. If we look at realworld examples, salaries is among the biggest
single expence posts for a military force. In the Naasakiira example, half 
their defence budget went to salaries. I've forgotten what I computed an 
average salary to be, but it was more on the order of 10 to 20kCr than your
20-25k. So had I've been using your cost-levels Naasakiira would have fallen
with or without TL15 help.

> 2) INERTIAL COMPENSATORS: I'd like to increase the size and power

> 3) PSIONIC SHIELDING: Despite the known limits of psionic powers

>    But will such a field stop tele-
>    portation too? If not, will anything shield against teleportation? IMO
>    a naval ship _must_ be either be teleport-shielded or have a large
>    number of internal security troops. Imagine the trouble a squad of
>    battle-suited marines could do after teleporting aboard a battleship.

  Imagine the trouble of 4 Zhos teleporting aboard a Chrysantemum DE. I know,
Exactly that thing happened in one of my campaigns. The end result was a 
negotiated settlement where the Zhos got a free ride back to the Consulate. 
Both sides thought they had won on the deal:)

>    My own inclination is to say that a brainwave shield will interfere
>    with the targeting aspect of teleportation and will thus protect
>    against it.

  Spoilsport:)

  But there are some troubles with teleporting to a ship in combat. The 
source and the destination ships must match vectors to prevent the teleportees
from becomming kinetic energy warheads, they must have a clear destination,
they will show up on all security sensors and they will have trouble 
naviating the ship when all hatches are closed and locked (since there is a
limit on the number of teleports in full combat armour and with weapons one
can do per day, even if one is the 'munchkin zhodani thought police commando
from hell')

> 4) DURABILITY: Tactically this reliance on annual maintenance is not a

  5) MILITARY SPENDING COST INCREASE: If the Imperium has gigacreds to waste 
on a navy, the manufacturers will see to it that the price on military ships
skyrocket. So the Navy will pay more for a given ships than a civilian would.
This will probably be blamed on mil-specing, MCr4 coffemachines and so on.

  6) MORE EXPENSIVE HARDPOINTS: This will also cure the problem with 30kt 
freighters who have a missile turret on every hardpoint "since they are 
practically free compared to the cost of the ship". Each hardpoint should
cause a noticable percentage increase in hull cost and weight due to
reinforcements (This is BTW the reason why we don't see any supertankers
mounting 10 127mm naval guns today). A spinal mount should lead to such
extreme increases in hull weight and cost that it would be impossible to
make a spinal-mount armed vessel above, say 40kt, unthinkably expensive
between 30 and 40kt, and very expensive between 20 and 30kt.

  7) FIRECONTROL: If we make the cost of the firecontrol highly dependent on
the number of turrets or bays we can inflate the costs of large ships mounting
more turrets than the referee care for, and inflate the cost of military ships
in one fell swoop.

  9) MILITARY WEAPONS: Turrets and bays are more or less equal today. If the
effectiveness of turrets upon military vessels is lowered (due to armour?),
all military ships will be forced to have bays or spinals to be usable against
other military vessels. Then we let the prices for bay weapons and spinal 
mounts skyrocket to such levels that no civilian will afford them.
  Turret defences should not work very well against bay weapons and we should
probably introduce a series of bay lasers and sandcasters for military vessels.
  There will still be some turret weapons on military vessels, but their 
purpose would be to keep the civilian ships in line.

>       Hans Rancke

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3588
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1992 13:40:04 EST
From: kirsch@rhea.informatik.uni-bonn.de
Subject: 3 designes and questions to COACC and Hard Times included

Hello all,

after following the discussion on TML and after a weekend of working on designs,
here is my opinion to the problem (and three designes at the end):

At first I suggest a seperation in designs of Spaceships - vehicles which
do not touch an atmosphere - and Orbiter - which are designed to bring payload
to orbit. I think Orbiter should be designed using COACC rules, Spaceships
using Hard Times + Craft Design from the referee's manual.

But no matter using the COACC rules for an Orbiter results in a couple of
problems. To show the different problems, I will suggest designs, and show
the problems they include.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
To build a cheap Orbital Transfer Vehicle the government of ....(please
insert world) a TL 7 world chooses to design a two stage vehicle. The first
stage should use air breathing engines to reach to the extreme point of
the atmosphere. There the second stage will be launched and engage its engines
to reach a low orbit or a "will be" low orbit space station. The second
stage is intended to carry 8 tons to orbit.
The calculation leads to 65 minutes to reach the extreme point of the
atmosphere using High Performance Turbofans and a thrust resulting in 2.73 g
acceleration. The upper stage is intended to use High Performance rockets at
3.9g acceleration for about 30 seconds. (Please remember High bypass Turbofans
are not available on TL 7.)
The result of this calculation, the following two designs are launched:

CraftID:	Sanger - Supersonic lower stage, TL 7, Cr=28,128,720
Hull:		1600/4000, Disp=1780, Config=1AF(Supersonic),
		Weight loaded=400tons, Armor=none
Power:		18 MW (drawn from engines), Endurance=99min
Locomotion:	4/10 High Performance Turbofans x 4, Thrust=1092 tons,
		Top=2800, Cruise=2100, Min=280, Agility=9
Communication:	Radio=Planetary x 2
Sensors:	Radar=regional (all weather)
Off/Def:	-
Control:	Computer=0bisx3, Computer enhanced Fly-by-Wire, 6 MP,
		Environment=basicEnv,basicLS
Accom:		Crew=4 (Pilot, Copilot, Engineer, Launch Operator),
		Complex Cockpit x 4, advanced ejection seats x 4
Other:		Fuel=164,000 liters (164 kl for an endurance of 99 minutes),
		Cargo=Subcraft=Orbiter= 40 tons
Please remember: the disp. of the upper stage orbiter is included in the
disp of this vehicle. So the real disp. is 1602 if you like.

CraftID:	Hermann Oberth - Orbit Vehicle, TL 7, Cr=7,031,440
Hull:		160/400, Disp=178, Config=1AF(Hypersonic STOL),
		Weight loaded=40tons, Armor=none
Power 1:	3.12 MW (drawn from engines), Endurance=2min
Power 2:	FuelCells(x2)=0.18 MW, Endurance=336h (=14 days)
		(This power plant supplies life support and electronic
		 equipment)
Locomotion:	4/10 High Performance Rocket (x4), Thrust=156tons,
		Top=3200kph, Cruise=2400kph, Agility=10, min=175 kph
Sensors:	Magnetic Sensor, Radiation Sensor
Commo:		Radio=Planetary, Regional(x2)  (for EVA)
Off/Def:	-
Control:	Computer=0bis(x3), Computer enhanced Fly-by-Wire, 6 MP,
		Environment=basicEnv,basicLS,extLS,AirLock
Accom:		Crew=4, (Pilot, Copilot, 2 Mission specialists)
		Complex Cockpit x 2, Passenger Section x 4 (some extra
		space for life on orbit), Rocket Escape Pod x 4
Other:	 	Fuel=3200 liters (Rocket), Fuel=330 liters (FuelCells),
		Cargo=8081.4 liters (=kg), Hvy Robotic Arm

The Cargo Bay can be opened to space to release satellites. The robotic
arm can be used to support launch sequences of satellites or to support
EVA (Extra Vehicular Activities).
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now the Problems:
I have used Computer enhanced Fly-by-Wire controls for both vehicles. As
a result, these controls needs lot of power. As I know from reality, APUs
(Auxiliar Power Units) supply about 300 KW of electric energies, even a
747-400 needs much less then 1 MW to support the control functions of its
Fly-by-System. I think the energy consumption of the COACC Controls are
to high. What is meant by "Controls" of COACC ?
I need fuel cells for the Orbiter. No other powerplant can be used, to support
the energy needs in an sealed environment. But Fuel Cells are at TL 10 refering
to the referees manual. Any comments ?

After I have finished this two designs, I looked on Hard Times for a second
time. They calculate the time to reach an LPO using the g-ratio (the weight
to thrust ratio) of the vehicle. But to calculate the time, to reach the
edge of the atmosphere using air breathing engines, they calculate 10 times
the time of a rocket launch. As a result, only the last 10% of the way to
the orbit had to be done by rockets. I conclude the following:
90% of a flight to orbit can be done using airbreathing engines.
That's the basic of the following design:
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
After calculating the Sanger two stage project, a smart engineer suggests
an alternative:

CraftID:	Space Train - One stage Orbital transfer Vehicle, TL 7,
		Cr 31,140,520
Hull:		1600/4000, Disp=1780, Config=1AF (Hypersonic STOL)
		Weight loaded=400tons, Armor=none
Power 1:	18 MW (drawn from engines), Endurance=500sec
Power 2:	Fuel Cell (x30), 2.7MW, Endurance=346h (>14days)
Loco 1:		4/10 High Performance Ramjet (x4), Thrust=1638 tons,
		Top=3300kph, Cruise=2475kph, min=175
Loco 2:		4/10 High Performance Rocket (x2), Thrust=819 tons,
		Top=2000kph, Cruise=1500kph, min=175
Commo:		Radio=FarOrbit(x2),Regional(x4)
Sensors:	Radar=regional(all weather), Magnetic Sensor,
		Radiation Sensor
Off/Def:	-
Control:	Computer=1bis x 3, Computer Enhanced Fly-by-Wire, 6MP,
		Environment=BasicEnv,BasicLS,ExtLS,AirLock
Accom:		Crew=8 (Pilot, Copilot, Engineer, Radio/Computer Operator,
		Passengers x 4), Complex Cockpit (x4),
		Passenger Section(x4), Rocket Escape Pods (x8)
Others:		Fuel 1=28kl (for Rocket, 200 sec Endurance),
		Fuel 2=42kl (for Ramjet, 300 sec Endurance),
		Fuel 3= 4150 liters(for Fuel Cells, 346 hours endurance)
		Cargo= 60 tons (exactly: 59957 kg)

The launch profile is the following:
The vehicle is launched vertically, so a launch site is a must. At first,
the Rockets burn for 30 seconds to kick the vehicle up to 800 kph where
at second the ramjets starts. The ramjet will lift the vehicle to the edge
of the atmosphere in about 250 seconds. There the rockets are restarted
and deliever the final kick of 52 seconds to reach the LPO.

1.Stage: Rocket:  30sec at 2.05g =>  5.8% of way to orbit
2.Stage: Ramjet: 248sec at 4.10g => 84.2%
3.Stage: Rocket:  51sec at 2.05g => 10.0%

The Fuel for the rockets is 200% of the requiered, so enough safty potential
is build in. The Fuel Capacity can be lowered to get more Cargospace.
This vehicle is MCr 5 cheaper than the two flight units of the Sanger Project
together. A second advantage is the fact, that this unit will carry 7 times
the payload of Sanger and has much more safty potential.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have perverted the LALV rules to design the above vehicle. It is able
to reach an LPO in 330seconds or 5 1/2 minutes. And it can carry far more
payload than the Sanger vehicle above.
One more problem of the Hard Times rule is:
They do not think about the landing of the vehicle. They do not calculate
the Fuel needed for reentrance to atmosphere nor they think of the special
Hull a vehicles needs, which try to land aerodynamical and uses the atmosphere
as cheap brake.
As Rob Dean suggest in one of his last emails, we could include this problems
in the calculation of the Hull weight and price. The calculations above are
made without using this. The price of the 3 designs above are done,  strict
using COACC rules. That's because I think Hypersonic designes had to stand
heat similar to an landing shuttle (that's one of the problems of hypersonic
flight).

I'm trying to build a complete Space Program. So I will design a space station
and some spaceships (using my definition, see above). Any suggestions to
the designes of this ships (Ion-cruiser, Lunar lander, Lunar Orbiter...)
are welcome.

That's all for the moment,

Juergen

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Juergen Kirsch
Institut fuer Informatik, Universitaet Bonn
Germany
kirsch@rhea.informatik.uni-bonn.de

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3589
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 92 08:46:22 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: more Hard Times and a challenge

IRT 3584 After Hard Times:

<applause>
<cheers>
Bravo!  The Great Game lives again!


Scott's challenge:

I can see three ways to wreck the Imperium.  Two are relatively quick, one
would take 100+ years.  In ascending order of time requirement:

   1)  Yaskaydroy gets tired of the Imperium being a nuisance near his
pocket universe in Regina subsector, and proceeds to smash the Imperium,
though not so thoroughly as he did his children.  While he's at it, he
smashes the Hivers, Aslan, Vargr, Zhodani, Solomani, and anyone else in
space.  All High Pop worlds are destroyed, all ships over 5000 tons
likewise.  The Imperium starts over in a few years looking a lot more like
the Classic Traveller picture of reality (few ships, all small, etc).

   2)  Lucan's agents in Darrian learn the secret of the Star Trigger.  
Lucan orders the Star Trigger used against all his enemies (read:
EVERYONE).  During the Maghizes happening all over the Imperium at once,
civilization dies.  Things rebuild as before.    Difficulties:  it takes a
while for light to propogate through that much space.  This version would
take 20-50 years to complete the collapse, that much more to recover.
A variation of same:  Antares goes supernova (film at eleven).  The  pulse
has an effect on the whole of known space similar to the Maghiz.  Takes 500
years to complete, but knocks Lucan out in only 200.  

   3)  Use H. Beam Piper's excuse:  The worlds of the Imperium all become
self-sufficient when someone introduces a self-replicating robot factory. 
Interstellar trade collapses.  Everyone is out of work.  The economies all
go bust.  Spiral down into the Dark Ages.  Unfortunately, things wouldn't
happen that way (probably).  And it would take 200-300 years in any case.

I consider the second scenario most likely.  It would trash the Imperium id
a Star Trigger was used on the star of every High Pop world in the area
(don't forget the Solomani and Zhodani worlds).  Unfortunately, Lucan is
the only Leader crazy enough to do it, and is not real terribly likely to
get the secret away from the Darrians.  But it COULD happen.

Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3590
Date:     Wed, 29 Jan 92 10:26:58 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (3585) Naval vessels

Hans Rancke writes:

> IMO a game like Traveller needs both rich, secure, civilized places with
> an economy that makes it possible for player characters to acquire a
> starship and lonely, wild places where the thug and the privateer roam
> and the only law is the one in your laser cannon.

I tend to agree with Hans on this one...it's good to have some sort of frontier
region, unless you want to run the entire game with conmen and terrorists and
the like as the bad guys.  Not that it couldn't be done...

<Hans' description of the "Fleet Too Big!!" problem deleted>

> 1) SALARIES: _Trillion Credit Squadron_ instructs us to ignore crew salaries.
>    I'd rather regard it as a legitimate drain on the naval budget. After all,
>    money spent on salaries can't be spent on ships too. Civilian crew sala-
>    ries runs from 6000 Cr/year to 40.000/year or more, so an average salary
>    of 20-25.000 Crimp/year dosen't seem excessive. If we furthermore look on
>    each shipboard crew position as representing two or three or perhaps even
>    four persons  -  the rest being trainees, trainers, planetside staff
>    etc.  -  and also include the cost and maintenance of all planetside
>    installations, then it won't be too much to say that each shipboard crew
>    position cost 100.000 Crimp/year. This will increase the effective cost of
>    each ship by 1 MCrimp per crew position (including marines). (Each credit
>    cut out of the yearly budget will mean 10 credits less to the initial
>    investment).

This idea isn't too bad in theory, but I have two objections.  The first is 
that it is my understanding that crew salaries and so forth are part of the
reason why military vessels in TCS take 10% of the initial cost per year to
maintain, when the annual maintenance rules for frieghters have always been
that the actual maintenance cost is 0.1% per year. The second is that the
adjustment isn't big enough.  A quick look through my TL15 Glisten Navy
designs shows that Crew Size * MCr1 is around 1-3% of the purchase price on
all major warships.  Thus, this rule would only trim down the fleet size by
1-3%, which isn't enough to do any good.

Maybe we should approach this problem backwards:  How many ships do we think a
fleet should have, and what kind of taxation rate does that give us?  How
many of the folks involved in this discussion have a copy of Fifth Frontier
War?  What do you think of the fleet levels there, in terms of effect on play
of the role-playing game?  Still too big?

We have to approach these things systematically, and this discussion is getting
too scattered for me to follow well right now.  Would someone like to post
another proposed solution, and the rationale for it?

(Hopefully incorporating the better parts of all the arguments...)

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3591
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 92 09:10:36 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: obsolete junk...

In reference to the construction of obsolete junk in Hard Times:

Cynthia pointed out last night that, if you are undergoing a collapsing
economy, you will not make yourself MORE competitive in the Interstellar
market by producing junk.  There will actually be more reason than ever to
stay near teh top of the TL ladder.  If you don't produce competitive
products, no-one will buy what you do produce, and things will rapidly get
even worse.

Did You Know?  

    The first working steam engine was built over 2000 years ago?
    TL4, my hind leg!

Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3592
Date:     Wed, 29 Jan 92 10:50:01 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (3571) TL high infantry...

In your letter dated Mon, 27 Jan 92 13:35:23 CST, you wrote:
> 
> BTW, rob, your comment about TL15 infantry being too vulnerable and all
> their targets being too invulnerable (to them) sounds a lot like what they
> said after WW2.  And WW1.  And the Franco-Prussian War.  And the American
> Civil War.  And the Thirty Years War.  And the Hundred Years War.  And
> Alexander's conquests.  And the Persian Attacks on Greece. and...

Maybe.  BUT, I'm not arguing that this problem would necessarily exist in
the "real" Imperium.  What I am saying is that it does exist in the rules
of Striker, which we are using as a model for development of our picture of
future trends.

Let me put this another way.  In the real world, defense and counter succeed
each other in sort of a progressive escalation.  The earliest tanks had armor
which could shrug off rifle caliber machine gun bullets (hopefully) and the
infantry eventually countered with the anti-tank rifle.  As engines got better,
more armor was added to the tank, and the anti-tank rifle was neutralized.  
This situation prevailed at the beginning of WWII, and infantry was essentially
forced to depend on artillery in the form of limited numbers of anti-tank guns
for defense against tanks.  Then someone developed the shaped charge warhead
which again allowed some sort of man-carried attack which could threaten an
armored vehicle.  The situation remained stable (more or less) through the
70's, with man-portable shaped charge attacks gaining range with the intro-
duction of missiles.  Now, the development of reactive and composite armors
have changed the situation again, to the point where it is possible to design
a tank which can shrug off infantry attacks in most circumstances...I'd suspect
that it isn't cost effective to do so because the weight/speed/cost tradeoffs
are not favorable.  Presumably the next step is either a man-portable kinetic
kill missile (heavy, lots of fuel needed) or an improved shaped charge method
which will counter the newer armor.

The trouble with Striker is this:  There are distinct limits to the development
of kinetic kill and shaped charge weapons.  We know what they are, and what
tech levels the maximums can be achieved in.  The tech level chart shows 
advances in armor outstripping the ability of kinetic kill and shpaed charge 
warheads to defeat it, roughly at TL14 with the introduction of superdense
armor.  Now, the overall battlefield situation is not brought to the level of
the 14th century, where armored men had a hard time injuring each other on the
battlefield because power generation technology and energy weapon technology
keeps up with  armor technology, and it is impossible to design a tank so well
armored that some sort of weapon can't punch through it.  The trouble is, from
the point of view of the infantry, that that weapon is likely to weigh 3/4 of
a ton and require another 5-6 tons of power plant to support it.  That makes
it non-portable, even for battledress equipped infantry, except of course by
their carriers, which are effectively tanks.

Anyway, beyond TL13 or so, I would guess that the optimum armor thickness for
tanks is going to be about 60...enough to shrug off infantry and low tech
weapons, but not so much that you can't load enough power plant into it to
push the limits of air speed, since speed will be the next most useful 
attribute, even if you don't allow Striker's evasion rule.

Would you care to suggest a class of infantry weapons that is not currently
covered by the rules that will threaten a grav tank?

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3593
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 92 10:23:43 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: IRT Navy ships

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
 
>IMO a game like Traveller needs both rich, secure, civilized places
with
>an economy that makes it possible for player characters to acquire a
>starship and lonely, wild places where the thug and the privateer roam
>and the only law is the one in your laser cannon.
 
I agree.
 
>Also IMO you'll be a bit short of the second type of place in a
universe
>where a single high-population world can finance enough naval vessels
to
>put a squadron of Azhantis in every starsystem in a subsector  -  at
least
>not when you have two or three high-pop worlds per subsector on the
average.
 
Likewise.
 
>You can of course make the pirates tough enough to deal with Azhantis,
but
>that rather defeats the purpose. A pirate should be a threat to player
>characters, true, but it should be a survivable threat.
>
>(You can of course give the player characters a ship that is equal to a
>pirate that is tough enough to deal with Azhantis. That will give them
a
>crew of several hundred NPCs to deal with... ;-)
 
Not necessarily.  He who fights and runs away, lives to run away another
day.
Look at the 18th century.  Very few private yachts (which is what a 200
ton free trader is in a universe of 60000 ton cruisers) could defeat a
pirate ship in a fight.  The Navy (then British) protected what they
could, but...
You could make the PCs commanding officers of a Tigris, and play like
Star Trek (five year mission, and all that.)
 
>There's two ways to attack this problem: You can reduce the money each
>world contributes to the navy, and you can reduce the amount of ship
>the navy gets for each credit. I'm working on something wrt the first
>approach, but in this posting I'd like to present some of my ideas for
>the second and would like to hear your comments.
 
A third way:  increase the size of each ship.  Under standard rules, a
5000 ton free trader would require a crew of four.  If all ships were
built to the limit of their controls, each ship would be much bigger,
and there would be both fewer ships, and less disparity between small
ships and large ones.
 
>1) SALARIES: _Trillion Credit Squadron_ instructs us to ignore crew
>salaries.
>   I'd rather regard it as a legitimate drain on the naval budget. 
 
TCS ignores crew salaries by making maintenance costs 100 times as high
as standard MT.  The extra 99x represents the costs of crews, bases,
training centers, recruiting posters, etc.
 
>2) INERTIAL COMPENSATORS: I'd like to increase the size and power
>   requirements of inertial compensators to be proportional to the
>   acceleration they are supposed to compensate for.
 
Not totally unreasonable.  Not in accord with MT definition of Inertial
compensators, either...  Even so, it is a trivial addition to the cost
of a ship.  For example, a 100,000 ton TL15 cruiser (snatched at random
from "shattered ships..") would cost an extra MCr337.5 (to as much as
MCr 1687.5 for a six-G ship) out of a total cost of MCr397,217.  An
increase of 0.085% to total cost.  Who cares?
 
>3) PSIONIC SHIELDING: Despite the known limits of psionic powers
>   (maximum range extreme orbit), no naval commander would like
>   to bet his ship on that.
 
Especially since combat range will not exceed Far Orbit, much less
Extreme Orbit.
 
>   a naval ship _must_ be either be teleport-shielded or have a large
>   number of internal security troops. Imagine the trouble a squad of
>   battle-suited marines could do after teleporting aboard a
>   battleship.  Talk about cost-efficiency!
 
Unlikely in the extreme.  The normal evasive maneuvering should keep the
ship's PE threshold far enough from the launching ship's to cook any
teleporter who tried to do something like that.
 
>4) DURABILITY: Tactically this reliance on annual maintenance is not a
>   good thing. If a war is just 5 jumps away from a naval vessel's
>   base, it will be travelling to a from annual maintenance 3 months
>   out of every year.
 
Nonetheless, this is MT's picture.  Try FFW (Fifth Frontier War)
sometime.  Imperial ships DON'T fight that far from their bases.
Besides, improvements such as you suggest would make those annoying
Naval vessels only about half as numerous, and twice as ubiquitous.  If
they could cruise that far from their bases, they.d be EVERYWHERE!
 
>  A good engineer should be able to keep a ship flying for two
>  or three years before the negative DMs for missed overhauls actually
>  began to apply.
 
Agreed.  But how to implement?  Notice the rules in Starship Operator's
Manual on Annual Maintenance.  Carry the spare parts, and the job is
simple with the crew doing it's own maintenance continuously.
 
>   Secondly allow a ship to be build with more durable materials and
>   higher system redundancies, if one is willing to pay. Perhaps one
>   extra year for each 25% extra money spent.
 
Sure.  Install a second jump drive, maneuver drive, sensor platform,
computer, etc.  Why be arbitrary about the price?  You want redundancy,
buy it from the standard rules.  See Leviathan for details.
 
>  Naval vessels would routinely be build for 5 year missions ;-), so
>   they would cost double the price of an equivalent civilian ship.
 
That would still leave 100,000 + naval vessels out there cluttering up
the Imperium, and getting in everyone else's way.
 
My own notions for cutting number of ships:  
{ note that these assume that there are a certain high number of "doves"
in the Imperial senate.}
 
1) Warships will all be large, general purpose ships (like the
Enterprise).
 
2) High pop worlds will all be unconquerable, and even unassailable by
ANY number of warships.  The planetary defences are mind-boggling in
their size and variety.
 
3) The Imperial Navy will exist more as a police force (the Patrol?)
than a military venture.
 
So cut the Naval budget down to trivial levels, since the High Pop
worlds don't need them anyway, and won't pay for one to protect their
neighbors.
 
Problems:  The Imperium would cease to exist, probably.  The High Pop
worlds have no use for it, so 97+% of the Imperial population would tell
it to bug off and leave them alone.  Maybe the small worlds would get
together in local defense polities, but these would break up as soon as
the leading members reached that point of invulnerability that the High
Pop worlds have.
 
If High Pop worlds are "invulnerable", then someone, somewhere, is going
to build a fleet big enough to prove that contention wrong.  Then the
original problem reappears , but worse than before.  (check out the
"Lensman" series by E.E. Smith)
 
Advantages:   No-one needs the Imperium cluttering things up anyway. 
Let the High Pop worlds play with themselves, and keep the PCs out in
the frontiers where they belong.
You can always keep any NPC from upsetting the applecart.  Keep your PCs
away from more than a billion credits or so, and THEY sure can't build a
"doomsday fleet", so the second problem can be ignored.
 
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3594
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1992 11:56 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re:  Naval Vessels in Traveller

Hans made a few comments on Naval construction.

Well, I'll try to give a few reactions.

1) Inertial compensators:
My reading of inertial comps, is that the compensators in place can handle at
LEAST 6G's of acceleration just fine.  In my opinion, the big fast military
ships cost too much already (at least they do as compared to High Guard).
Having to install 6 times as much Inertial Compensators would just add to the
cost of the whole thing.

To justify this, I would say that the reason a Merchant ship would want the
ability to handle accelerations higher than their maneuver drive is for
collisions.  There was a bit in MegaTJournal #2, where they talk about a ship
that hit (essentually) an airborne whale.  The crew died because their
inertial comps were out.  This suggests that they would have survived had they
been functional.  Well, I'll tell you an impact like that is gonna produce
an acceleration of a LOT more than 6 Gs.  To my mind this indicates the comps
can handle a lot MORE than 6G Gs when working properly.  When you're loaded up
with breakable cargo, or passengers, or cargo that you don't wanna shift
around a lot.  The extra bit of compensation is justifiable.

2) Psi shielding for ships:
Well, why not?  It would be of very dubious use in preventing Zho Teleport
commandos though.  Remember, they have limited range.  Also there is the
problem that the attacker would still have to match vectors with the defender
to avoid the teleporters from slamming into the bulkheads of the ship they
are teleporting on to.

Such a maneuver would be VERY difficult.  You would have to be EXTREMELY
accurate in your determination of where the target is.  (sensor & piloting
tasks rated at Worse than impossible)  (Not to mention the fact that
presumably you are also getting shot at!)

But I would assume it would be effective against attacks by telepathy,
clairvoyance, and telekinesis.

It has dubious value for capital ships, but intruder type ships attempting
to penetrate the Naval Base at Chronor might find it useful.

3) Durability:
Hard to say.  I would oppose increasing the time required between maintanance
for ships.  If anything, once a year is a LONG time to leave something alone,
especially when you depend upon it for your LIFE!  Aircraft are overhauled
every 100 hours.  I have assumed that ships undergo maintainance constantly.
Spreading the cost out over an entire year.  Then, at the end of a year, the
inspection comes.  At that time, all systems MUST perform at specifications or
the ship's flight worthiness certificate will be revoked.

Maybe Steve Higginbotham can give us a clue as to how long Boomers go bettween
overhauls?

But if the availability of ports suitable for overhauls bothers you for Naval
vessels, I would suggest you take a look at the X-Boat tender.  I would say
that a properly manned X-Boat Tender could service up to say a 400 ton ship.
This would cover your basic X-Boats, Scouts, Gazelles, Fireys, and Patrol
Cruisers.

For larger Naval vessels, build a larger tender.  I'd guess a battle rider
carrier could manage it for her brood.

Scott Kellogg
"Let's Get Dangerous!" --Darkwing Duck

------------------------------

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Date: Sun Feb  2 21:00:14 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #292: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3595  29-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Naval vessels << Robert S. Dean writes: >
3596  29-Jan-92 gsw@whservd.att.C GAMES FOR SALE << I'm sorry for the delay in 
3597  29-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Future Warfare << Steve Higginbotham writes: 
3598  29-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Re: (3581) all sorts of things... << Steve Hi
3599  29-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Re: Naval vessels << Bertil writes: > > 6) MO
3600  29-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Re: Naval Vessels in Traveller, (Inertial Com
3601  29-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha roads, and other wheely things. << >> That's 
3602  29-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha boomer overhauls << >Maybe Steve Higginbotham
3603  29-Jan-92 salamon@sdbio2.UC RE: (3577) Flight control systems on alien sp
3604  29-Jan-92 Peter Berghold    Death of an Empire << Here is my scenario for
3605  29-Jan-92 metlay@minerva.ph On starting a new PBEM << Cynthia Higginbotha
3606  29-Jan-92 Julie Jenson      Re:(3584)After Hard Times << Hans Rancke-Mads
3607  29-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Inertial compensations << Rob makes the a
3608  29-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha more Striker... << >Actually, I seem to recal
3609  30-Jan-92 jdietz@sdcc13.UCS Antares Supernova? << Topic 2b of Steve Higgi

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3595
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Naval vessels
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 92 19:24:12 MET

Robert S. Dean writes:

>>1) SALARIES: _Trillion Credit Squadron_ instructs us to ignore crew
>>   salaries. I'd rather regard it as a legitimate drain on the naval budget.
>
>This idea isn't too bad in theory, but I have two objections.  The first is
>that it is my understanding that crew salaries and so forth are part of the
>reason why military vessels in TCS take 10% of the initial cost per year to
>maintain,

I've always assumed that naval ships had an average lifetime of 10 years
(or rather some combination of yearly repairs+maintenance and average
lifetime that comes to 10% per year, for example average 5%/year on
repairs/maintenance and average 20 years lifetime). I'd overlooked that
once you've established the initial fleet, you both pay 10% maintenance
per year _and_ explicitly for repair and replacements. Frankly, since what
I'm concerned about is the initial investment I suggest that we keep the
"10 times yearly budget" rule for initial investments and drop the "10%
per year on maintenance" rule. In a real campaign the money spent on
repairs and replacements will use up your budget fast enough anyway :-)

>                                                The second is that the
>adjustment isn't big enough.  A quick look through my TL15 Glisten Navy
>designs shows that Crew Size * MCr1 is around 1-3% of the purchase price on
>all major warships.  Thus, this rule would only trim down the fleet size by
>1-3%, which isn't enough to do any good.

It's not enough in itself, but every bit helps. Furthermore, I'd suggest
that naval vessels routinely incorporates extra crew positions (as "spares",
you can't just hire a replacement if you loose one during a battle).

And Bertil writes:

>  I'd favour the second approach: Finding ways of increasing the cost of
>military ships without increasing the cost of civilian ships.

No need to choose one or the other. I favour using both. It's just that I
haven't organized my ideas for reducing fleet revenues yet.


>  This will, if done right, also cure another problem: The dilemma of
>30kt freighters and 30kt light cruisers. We all know that the Imperium need
>a lot of 30kt freighters for the commerce to work. We also know that if it
>is that easy to build 30kt ships we will get too many cruisers for the
>pirates to handle. We also know that each one of those 30kt freighters can
>mount a horrifying fire-power compared to a 400t corsair.

How very true.

>*********
>  What I'd like the Traveller universe to be is a place where traders on up
>to 200kt, and fleet tankers of even larger tonnages are common, but where
>these ships have at most a handful of turrets and where a 'battleship' is
>somewhere on the order 20-30kt (destroyers: around 1 to 3kt, cruisers around
>10kt, carriers around 30kt, but lightly armed).
>
>  What do people think about this goal?
>*********

I vote aye! ;-)

>>3) PSIONIC SHIELDING: Despite the known limits of psionic powers
>
>>   But will such a field stop tele-
>>   portation too? If not, will anything shield against teleportation? IMO
>>   a naval ship _must_ be either be teleport-shielded or have a large
>>   number of internal security troops. Imagine the trouble a squad of
>>   battle-suited marines could do after teleporting aboard a battleship.
>
>  Imagine the trouble of 4 Zhos teleporting aboard a Chrysantemum DE. I know,
>Exactly that thing happened in one of my campaigns. The end result was a
>negotiated settlement where the Zhos got a free ride back to the Consulate.
>Both sides thought they had won on the deal:)

>>   My own inclination is to say that a brainwave shield will interfere
>>   with the targeting aspect of teleportation and will thus protect
>>   against it.

>  Spoilsport:)

Well, fortunately we don't have to agree with each other on this. You will
agree, won't you,  that a psionic shield will be what a naval captain
longs for, even if it "only" protects him from having his thoughts read?

>  But there are some troubles with teleporting to a ship in combat. The
>source and the destination ships must match vectors to prevent the
>teleportees from becomming kinetic energy warheads.

Teleporters, you mean. Teleporters teleport themselves, teleportees gets
teleported by others. You're right, an routine avoidance of matching
vectors with enemy ships will protect against teleport attacks. I'd still
like an anti-teleport shield for when my ship is in port though ;-)
 (And then there's the threat of special psionics. A projecting teleporter
could destroy a hostile ship by teleporting a lump of iron from a ship with
a radically _different_ vector. Ouch!)

>  5) MILITARY SPENDING COST INCREASE: If the Imperium has gigacreds to
>waste on a navy, the manufacturers will see to it that the price on military
>ships skyrocket. So the Navy will pay more for a given ships than a civilian
>would. This will probably be blamed on mil-specing, MCr4 coffemachines
>and so on.

This is a very good idea. I'd suggest tying the waste percentage to the size
of the interstellar community in question (so the Imperium wastes more than
the Darrian Confederation which wastes more than a single planet).

>  6) MORE EXPENSIVE HARDPOINTS: This will also cure the problem with 30kt
>freighters who have a missile turret on every hardpoint "since they are
>practically free compared to the cost of the ship". Each hardpoint should
>cause a noticable percentage increase in hull cost and weight due to
>reinforcements (This is BTW the reason why we don't see any supertankers
>mounting 10 127mm naval guns today). A spinal mount should lead to such
>extreme increases in hull weight and cost that it would be impossible to
>make a spinal-mount armed vessel above, say 40kt, unthinkably expensive
>between 30 and 40kt, and very expensive between 20 and 30kt.

Well and good, but could one justify allowing a small hull to mount hardpoints
at the present cost and then increase the per hardpoint cost as the hull size
increases? I don't want to increase the price of the kind of ships that player
characters usually gets.

>  7) FIRECONTROL: If we make the cost of the firecontrol highly dependent on
>the number of turrets or bays we can inflate the costs of large ships
>mounting more turrets than the referee care for, and inflate the cost of
>military ships in one fell swoop.
>
>  9) MILITARY WEAPONS: Turrets and bays are more or less equal today. If the
>effectiveness of turrets upon military vessels is lowered (due to armour?),
>all military ships will be forced to have bays or spinals to be usable
>against other military vessels. Then we let the prices for bay weapons and
>spinal mounts skyrocket to such levels that no civilian will afford them.
>  Turret defences should not work very well against bay weapons and we
>should probably introduce a series of bay lasers and sandcasters for
>military vessels.
>  There will still be some turret weapons on military vessels, but their
>purpose would be to keep the civilian ships in line.

Two more good ideas. Do you think you could work a bit on them?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3596
From: gsw@whservd.att.COM
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 92 13:35 EST
Subject: GAMES FOR SALE

I'm sorry for the delay in getting back to everyone.  I have
been working 16+ hour days, due to a massive integration
effort taking place.

I'll try to get a price list as soon as possible.  A few
people asked for prices on collections (including all of
the Traveller stuff).  With all of the offers for the
classic Traveller items, though, I don't think I'd offer
much in the way of bulk discounts for these.

I think I'd like to make it first come, first served.  If
I already negotiated a final price with you, then assume
that still stands.

I'll first post the price list, then get back to the
many of you who responded via e-mail.

Once again, sorry for the delay.

Jerry Williams
gsw@whservd.att.com

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3597
Date:     Wed, 29 Jan 92 14:43:00 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Future Warfare

Steve Higginbotham writes:

> Sorry, I was being facetious.  My apologies, and all that.  I can apologize
> in public on the list if you like...

No sweat.

> Seriously, I am aware of all these things.  I was an Army brat with an
> unwholesome interset in the History of Technology and Warfare.

Well, as you an see by my mailing address (.army.mil) I derive my livelihood
from the army, though I find that few of my co-workers are very interested
in these sorts of issues.

> In fact, the M1 Abrams is essentially invulnerable to hand held anti-tank
> weapons.  So is the British Challenger, I am given to understand.

Yes, and it can be worse in Traveller, since I can arrange things so that
the M-1 equivalent is armored all-around, instead of mostly in the front.

> Part of the difficulty is inherent in the short-sightedness of the GDW
> people:  If Tank armour gets better, then SOMEONE will develop a weapon
> that can punch through it.  GDW does not assume this.

They do, actually...it's just not necessarily going to be an infantry weapon.

> A quick and dirty fix:  steal some of the PGMPs from 2300AD.  The
> throw-away, high output  models.  That particular idea should be able to be
> upgraded to deal with any tank. (In fact, there is no reason that the HEAT
> round could not be upgraded to deal with the tougher threats)
> 
> My particular picture of High Tech warfare has never included the FGMP
> anyway.  Fire once, and everyone within LOS knows EXACTLY where you are. 
> Expect a return message REAL SOON.  I always liked the RAM auto launcher
> equipped Marine.
> Note that Battledress includes the extra muscle implicit in powered armor. 
> These guys may be able to lug a 3/4 ton weapon if they have to.  Certainly
> they could break it down to three luggable loads for the heavy weapons team
> to carry.

Actually, I seem to recall (without my rules handy today) that the extra 
carrying capacity of a suit of battledress is about 200kg--which is why I 
picked 3/4 of a ton--it's over the limit.

> Remember pinpoint hits also.  I know that tanks have armor overall, and
> can't be pinpointed.  How about the vision system?  the sensors?  The
> muzzle of their weapon?  The heat exchanger from their fusion plant?  There
> should be a LOT of vulnerable things outside the armour of ANY tank.  And a
> pinpoint hit with a RAM grenade WILL punch through factor 60 armour, or
> even factor 75.

I don't like the pinpoint hit rule for a couple of reasons, having to do with
change overs from Striker.  The first is the log armor scale.  In Striker,
and in MT, there is a non-log region of the armor table (below 10?).  Above
that, a difference of 8 in the armor factor is twice or half the protection,
as the case may be.  Thus, the old Striker damage system seemed to be fairly
reasonable--a difference of +8 (twice the energy to penetrate) was almost a
sure kill.  In MT, the table is the same, but now we have the multiplicative
factor (*2 *1/2) to determine high/low penetration.  This leads to some severe
distortion at the upper end of the scale--if my armor is 40, 80 is needed to
get a high penetration.  80 is 2^5 (=32) times thicker than 40.  10 armor only
requires 20 (approximately double the thickness) to achieve a high penetration.

If I ever run a military campaign with MT, I'll probably make the high/low 
penetration a subtractive difference of 8 rather than a multiplicative 
difference of 2--the MT system seems to be trying to factor things in twice
and it doesn't work.

The second reason I don't like pinpoint hits is back to targetting ability in
general--I think that if systems are good enough to allow you to pick a
specific location on a tank that is less than 10% of the visible surface area
when that tank is a crossing target travelling at Mach 4 200kms away, then we
shouldn't even bother with a 'to hit' roll for a non-pinpoint shot.  Esthetics
of the game mechanics don't jive.


> And if worse comes to worse, use collapsing rounds, nuclear weapons, and
> all that good stuff.  A collapsing round CAN be stopped, but its NOT easy,
> and it will trash pretty much anything it hits.  The Nucs are more
> vulnerable (to Dampers), but dampers are treated like Point defense weapons
> - they CAN be saturated.  Toss enough Nukes, and some will get through.

Hmmmm...do the dampers roll as against indirect fire rounds (I think so)?
A TL15 PD system will roll 14-16 dice against indirect fire roounds, meaning
that the damper could reasonable expect to wipe out 50 or so nuclear missiles
before being overwhelmed.  Gets expensive...

Collapsing rounds require damper boxes, which are not man-portable, which still
leaves us with "rifle infantry and a few anti-tank guns".  I sometimes think
that a better analogy for TL15 infantry would be current infantrymen pitted
strictly against F-15Es.  Sure, you can carry Stingers, but...

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3598
Date:     Wed, 29 Jan 92 15:08:22 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (3581) all sorts of things...

Steve Higginbotham writes:
>  
> That's a very good question, which we have been asking ourselves since
> we got hold of Hard Times.  (actually, I have been wondering since MT
> came out, as MT made it MUCH harder to build a ship which could have a
> real chance of being an effective pirate)

How so?  It looks about the same to me...at least if you consider High Guard
as part of your pre-MT framework.

> Paul Dugan writes:
>  
> >Would the IDPs be coming through with the piracy and war that is
> >suppossed to be wreaking such havoc? Were these things being sent out
> >for free? (note:I haven't yet aquired Hard Times, so I may be speaking
> >from considerable ignorance)
>  
> Indications were that they were passed out for free, and that every
> world in the Imperium had them in their databases.  Who cares whether
> they still come in?  You already got the ones for TL5-15!

Although it has since been picked up by Chuck Gannon (and hence Challenge and
Hard Times), I'm the one who came up with the IDP name.  I figured that they
were essentially given away free by the Imperium in the interest of maintaining
a healthy economy to tax...

> >Grav technology may  be simple, but it's much more expesive than
> >wheels. (as the horse cart is than an auto). With the general finacial
> >collapse that would seem to be enatiled by the disruption of trade, and
> >the general malaise of war, and the fear about the future promoting
> >depression (as we see today with buyers being cautious) I might be
> >happy to give up my abaility to fly around the world in 20 minutes in
> >my sleek megacredit speeder and just buy a cheap lo-tech ground car.
>  
> So, how much less does it cost to buy the wheel from an oxcart in the
> USA today than it does to buy a tire for your automobile?  Wheels are
> cheaper if you have a wheel factory, but if all your factories produce
> Grav modules, wheels are going to be EXPENSIVE imports.  Cynthia has
> designed several Grav vehicles that retail for about the same as a
> modern automobile (use fuel cells and solar panels, and watch the price
> of your speeder plummet!).  I doubt that wheeled vehicles would be
> competitive.  Especially given the detail everyone else (GDW included)
> seems to overlook.  NO ROADS!   The wheeled vehicle economy will never
> work without roads for them to drive on (yes, four wheel drive offroad
> vehicles exist - have you ever seen a four-wheel drive off-road
> 18wheeler?)  The roads would cost FAR more (llok at how much the USA
> spends on them) than the grav vehicle factory ever could.

Hmmmm....I don't know about that for sure, Steve.  While I didn't go into it
extensively at the time, some back of the envelope calculations had me 
convinced that bulk freight transport by grav vehicle probably becomes 
economical with the increased fusion plant output at TL13.  Below that level, 
you would see increasing amounts of people and high value/low weight cargoes
moving by grav vehicle from TL9 through TL12.  Bulk cargo, though, would be
easier/cheaper to move in wheeled vehicles on roads between population and
distribution centers.  Think of it as a railroad analogy.  There will also be
other special purpose applications for wheeled and tracked vehicles even at
higher TLs, so the technology won't be completely forgotten.

Rob Dean


> >I wanted to address another issue though, and that is the vilani
> >cultural influence, which must be prevalent to some extent throughout
> >the imperium in general. If the smart-sophonts have hightailed it out
> >of the dangerous areas, it would leave alot of people behind who
> >wouldn't know were to begin to understand a tech 15 blueprint, and who
> >might not want to when they could just slap together an oxcart (or run
> >a driveshaft out of their failed grav-vehicle).
>  
> I doubt that the smart sophonts did, but the Vilani heritage CANNOT be
> that strong, since the same problem existed in teh Long Night.  Plenty
> of time for evolution to wipe out that particular mind-set.  Note the
> troubles Vland has had in reinstating it even in their own sector.
>  
> And if it were common, then the lads left behind would just know how to
> do one thing, which WILL NOT BE how to build wheeled vehicles!  They are
> far more likely to have cookbook knowledge of Grav engineering than of
> wheeled vehicle design (which they haven't used in 11,000 years).
>  
> >Maybe the 5-level techdrop is too extreme, maybe it isn't extreme
> >enough.
> >It would seem to be a good way to quantify the general chaos of the
> >hard times period. Remeber that the rich on the necounter tables always
> >did
> >have +2 TL items, and the peasants -2 TL. (or therebaouts.)
> >I'm going to get hard times soo and give it a looksee. It sounds
> >interesting.
>  
> The five Tl drop is ludicrous. The assumption that such a drop would
> last for more than a VERY short period is even more ludicrous.
> HOWEVER, the MOST LUDICROUS THING TRAVELLER (in any incarnation) HAS
> EVER DONE IS TO ASSUME THAT "PEASANTS" WILL BE COMMON IN THE
> IMPERIUM!!!!!!!!
> 
> - -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b
> 
> Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US
> 
> I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
>                                     --W. von Braun
> 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3599
Date:     Wed, 29 Jan 92 17:02:06 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Naval vessels

Bertil writes:

> >  6) MORE EXPENSIVE HARDPOINTS: This will also cure the problem with 30kt
> >freighters who have a missile turret on every hardpoint "since they are
> >practically free compared to the cost of the ship". Each hardpoint should
> >cause a noticable percentage increase in hull cost and weight due to
> >reinforcements (This is BTW the reason why we don't see any supertankers
> >mounting 10 127mm naval guns today). A spinal mount should lead to such
> >extreme increases in hull weight and cost that it would be impossible to
> >make a spinal-mount armed vessel above, say 40kt, unthinkably expensive
> >between 30 and 40kt, and very expensive between 20 and 30kt.

A better way is to consider the price of missiles.  At Cr50000 each, a bay
shoots off MCr1.25 with each volley.  As to supertankers and guns, I must
point out that missile racks and lasers are recoilless weapons, and would
not require structural reinforcement.

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3600
Date:     Wed, 29 Jan 92 17:10:15 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Naval Vessels in Traveller,  (Inertial Compensation)

Scott Kellogg (2-G Scott) writes:  
> 
> Hans made a few comments on Naval construction.
> 
> Well, I'll try to give a few reactions.
> 
> 1) Inertial compensators:
> My reading of inertial comps, is that the compensators in place can handle at
> LEAST 6G's of acceleration just fine.  In my opinion, the big fast military
> ships cost too much already (at least they do as compared to High Guard).
> Having to install 6 times as much Inertial Compensators would just add to the
> cost of the whole thing.
> 
> To justify this, I would say that the reason a Merchant ship would want the
> ability to handle accelerations higher than their maneuver drive is for
> collisions.  There was a bit in MegaTJournal #2, where they talk about a ship
> that hit (essentually) an airborne whale.  The crew died because their
> inertial comps were out. This suggests that they would have survived had they
> been functional.  Well, I'll tell you an impact like that is gonna produce
> an acceleration of a LOT more than 6 Gs.  To my mind this indicates the comps
> can handle a lot MORE than 6G Gs when working properly. When you're loaded up
> with breakable cargo, or passengers, or cargo that you don't wanna shift
> around a lot.  The extra bit of compensation is justifiable.

The _only_ time you would need extra inertial compensation (above the drive
rating, or at least above the emergency drive rating) is for an impact or other
sudden acceleration.  Personally, I don't believe it will work in such a case.
It's been a long time since I was in basic physics, but I work with artillery
projectiles now...a sudden deceleration from aircraft or spacecraft speeds 
could be almost as bad as the acceleration experienced in a gun tube by the
shell, which is measured in 1000s of Gs.  I think a crash is a crash, and
DGP hadn't thought through the business of inertial compensators when they put
them in MT.  In fact, I gather from what I've read in MTJ, TD and on GEnie that
they don't think that they necessarily have anything to do with grav technology
at all.  Naturally, I don't like that viewpoint, and treat them as grav plates
mounted along the line of thrust.

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3601
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 92 16:48:25 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: roads, and other wheely things.

  
>> That's a very good question, which we have been asking ourselves since
>> we got hold of Hard Times.  (actually, I have been wondering since MT
>> came out, as MT made it MUCH harder to build a ship which could have a
>> real chance of being an effective pirate)
>
>How so?  It looks about the same to me...at least if you consider High
>Guard as part of your pre-MT framework.
 
Actually, the primary requirement for an effective PIRATE is crew space,
and station-keeping ability.  Not weaponry, acceleration, or much of
anything else.  In High Guard, power plant fuel use was low enough that you
had plenty of room for extra men (though the bunk helped in that regard),
and it was relatively easy to design a ship that could stay on station for
several months.
 
>Hmmmm....I don't know about that for sure, Steve.  While I didn't go into
>it extensively at the time, some back of the envelope calculations had me 
>convinced that bulk freight transport by grav vehicle probably becomes 
>economical with the increased fusion plant output at TL13.  Below that
>level, you would see increasing amounts of people and high value/low
>weight cargoes moving by grav vehicle from TL9 through TL12.  Bulk cargo,
>though, would be easier/cheaper to move in wheeled vehicles on roads
>between population and distribution centers.  Think of it as a railroad
>analogy.  There will also be other special purpose applications for
>wheeled and tracked vehicles even at higher TLs, so the technology won't
>be completely forgotten.
 
UNlikely.  Have you checked out the price of a mile of highway?  How about
a million miles of it?
BTW, RAILROADS (at least the maglev kind) I can believe in.  I don't really
expect them, but I could accept them.  For hauling large cargoes about on a
world, expect to see large, low performance spacecraft.  They can deliver
the goods so quickly that the required fleet would be quite small, and if
they used enough grav to get 1.25 times local surface G, most would be less
than 1G (about 0.75 actually).  They can still make a sub-orbital hop, and
still cost less than the million or so miles of roads they replace.
 
Especially if you use our additions to the pricing schemes for LPHG and
LPLG.
I am sure that you can build a wheeled vehicle for less than any grav
vehicle (if you try hard), but it is unlikely to cost less if you add the
cost of the highway system in.
 
BTW, at the present price of highways (a few million per mile), a world
could import grav cars for everyone, rather than build a highway system as
large as ours.  And ours is none too large, as rush hour traffic will
attest.
 
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3602
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 92 16:49:27 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: boomer overhauls

>Maybe Steve Higginbotham can give us a clue as to how long Boomers go
>bettween overhauls?
 
A boomer goes five to ten years between major overhauls.  The reactor is
refuelled every 15 years (more or less).  Minor overhauls happen every two
to three years.  Maintenance happens 18+ hours of every day underway, and
perhaps 12-15 hours per day in port.
 
 
>Scott Kellogg
>"Let's Get Dangerous!" --Darkwing Duck
 
My God!  Someone else watches that show!?!

Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3603
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 92 15:14:58 PST
From: salamon@sdbio2.UCSD.EDU (Andrew Salamon)
Subject: RE: (3577) Flight control systems on alien spacecraft

>Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1992 09:45 CDT
>From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
>Subject: (3577) Flight control systems on alien spacecraft
>
>VILANI
>	Vilani controls are a bit more automated.  Auto pilots tend
>
>Mr. Scott

  I haven't really read too much in the way of background on the Imperium, but
I was under the impression that the Vilani had this cultural 'thing' AGAINST
relying on technology.  I would think Vilani flight controls would be much
less automated than any other races'.

Andrew/Etienne

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3604
Date: 29 Jan 92 18:30:51 EST
From: Peter Berghold <70742.2346@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Death of an Empire

Here is my scenario for the end of the Imperium...
 
Some of the presupositions are as follows:
 
     Given the increased depandance on fast food places and pizza deliveries
by modern families from c. 1990 Terra, this dependance was extrapolated to
the times of the present Imperium.  At some point, this dependance reaches a
critical mass.   A conflicting issue is the lack of people in the labor pool
who would be willing to work for minimum wage to staff these fast food
emporiums.
 
     As fewer workers are available more and more of these fast food places
go out of business.  As a result there is less and less fast food available
for the growing demand.  This demand has at this point begun to double on a
daily basis.
 
     As a result, more time is spent waiting for the fast food to arrive
either at the customer's home or time spent waiting in line.
 
     This leads to a decline in services in other sectors as the work force
spends more time waiting for its fast food.  As a result critical services
become crippled.  Fires rage out of control, starships are not service and
goods are not delivered where needed.
 
     The end comes as a continual downward spiral until the entire Imperium
is rendered impotant.  And the long darkness begins....
 
 
Better than a compter virus!!
 
       


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3605
From: metlay@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (metlay)
Subject: On starting a new PBEM
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 92 18:38:51 EST


Cynthia Higginbotham has announced her intent to begin a private PBEM
game. Mark (current ref x 0.5) and richard (original ref) have both
given her their blessings, along with a fair bit of what they consider
good advice. If I may, I (current ref x 0.5) would like to complete 
the triangle with some advice of my own.

Don't do it. Don't don't don't don't DON'T.

I'm sorry to be such a wet blanket, but I HAVE to inject a note of
reason into this round of mutual backslapping. Reffing a PBEM is 
incredibly hard work, incredibly time-consuming and incredibly
frustrating. Mark and I stepped in last month to take over for 
Richard, who was finally admitting defeat after staggering along
trying to hold things together for two long years. We did so because
the PBEM had become a labor of love for over forty people, past and 
present, and we just couldn't let it die. And we WON'T let it die.

Even if it kills us. Which it's doing, quite handily.

On average, Mark and I spend two hours PER DAY sorting out PBEM mail
and archives, answering questions, straightening out problems, 
trying to prepare for contingencies that will arise in later turns,
plotting ahead where we can, etc. And this is BEFORE the game actually
begins! Once people start generating actual game turns, our load will
skyrocket. Both our tempers are fraying, and we have both wondered
out loud (a) how Richard ever did it (b) how we'll continue to manage
it.

The difference is that Richard had an extremely relaxed reffing style;
he set up a general situation, put some characters in it, and let it
go. Inertia has kept it moving for two years plus, which translates 
into about two weeks of game time. We've been travelling to a newly
discovered ringworld-- and in two years of play, we HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED
DOWN YET. The entire game, since 1989, has been about the trip there!

Some people are having a blast. Others are incredibly frustrated at having
nothing to do for Two Whole Years. Some people post twenty moves per day;
others post once a month or less. Somehow, all of these people must be
coordinated into a common time and causality flow, compounded by the twin
problems of restricted knowledge-base and poor gaming etiquette. By nature,
gamers are secretive; this means that the ref has to handle dozens of
simultaneous secret byplays that are often at cross purposes with one 
another-- A and B claim to be having a secret chat in one place, while 
a public turn is going on at the same time and place. Etiquette demands
that a player not use knowledge that HE has but his CHARACTER does not;
this has been violated already by at least a dozen people, with serious
repercussions. And so on, and so on....

Some people have argued that we should just relax and go with the flow,
as Richard has done in the past. These same people are also screaming
about plot and timeflow inconsistencies that they can't quite wrap
their heads around. When you add to the fact that the past two years
have been devoted to just getting to our destination, and the REAL plot
is just beginning, things are promising to become hellish.

I don't want to make anyone feel guilty-- I love this game, and I'm 
having a blast getting it up and running again. I know Mark is, too.
Believe me, if I didn't love it, I wouldn't do it, no matter WHAT.
But I can NOT stand by and let someone who hasn't tried it walk 
blindly into it without issuing some kind of a feeble warning.

Cynthia, if you MUST do this, do yourself a favor: don't run double-blind,
in fact demand that all but the most desperately secret turns be public,
and that people run their characters maturely and not use information
they shouldn't have. Set strict timeflow limits, and don't be afraid 
to veto turns that are impossible or out of place. And above all, resist
the temptation to let everybody play-- in fact, if you run a group of
more than four or five players, you're going to run into serious hassles.
Set up an address server if you possibly can, with an autoarchive, like
we have (thanks to Dan Corrin, without whom we'd be dead in the water),
and have default actions per turn for every player in case they don't
post often. 

And keep smiling, because the alternative is total insanity.

The first PBEM turn of 1992 will be published on the TML this coming
Monday, in several (three?) parts. As soon as the last part is published,
play resumes automatically. We'll see you at the Hoop....

- -- 
Mike Metlay                                 metlay@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu
Atomic City                      P.O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3606
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1992 19:29:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Julie Jenson <jj1p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re:(3584)After Hard Times


Hans Rancke-Madsen write:
>
>And Antares. How the h... did Antares get in the same sorry
>state as the rest of the factions? Didn't they get an alliance
>with the Julian League? Especially hard to understand is the
>Frontier and Wilds areas _between_ Antares and the League. Even
>if Lucan kicked the shit out of the spinward part of Antares,
>surely the coreward part would be protected by the League?

Actually Antares left the Julian League around 1120 or so.  It might
have been a year later, but I don't have my books with me right now.  As
for no-mans  land  Bzrk has Vargr problems too,  Lishun was overrun
pretty early, I'm not surprised it extended into Antares.  The JP was
also having a trade war with Vland.   Still those safes are tiny, oh
well.

Rob Harris
jj1p+harris@andrew.cmu.edu

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3607
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1992 19:10 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re:  Inertial compensations

Rob makes the argument that NO ship would be able to handle a crash and
survive, no matter WHAT the inertial compensators can do.

I agree totally.

But when impact is at relatively low speeds, survival is possible.  If the
ship hits an object and is allowed say to decelerate over a period of one
second, then collisions of less than 300 kph are survivable.  If we allow
say the inertial compensators to put out an extreme burst, say compensating
for 25G's then you can allow up to 900kph collisions and survive.

Actually, decelerations are going to be over microseconds, thus Rob is correct
when he says collisions range in the 100s to 1000s of Gs.  But to my mind the
paltry few G's of compensation could amount to a 'Five mile an hour bumper'.
For very small collisions it might save a few lives.  In a head on collision
you'll be dead no matter what you do.

Scott

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3608
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 92 19:13:31 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: more Striker...

 
>Actually, I seem to recall (without my rules handy today) that the extra 
>carrying capacity of a suit of battledress is about 200kg--which is why I 
>picked 3/4 of a ton--it's over the limit.
 
So put micro-grav generators on it like the FGMP15 has.
 
>I don't like the pinpoint hit rule for a couple of reasons, having to do
>with change overs from Striker.  The first is the log armor scale.  In
>Striker, and in MT, there is a non-log region of the armor table (below
>10?).  Above that, a difference of 8 in the armor factor is twice or half
>the protection, as the case may be.  Thus, the old Striker damage system
>seemed to be fairly reasonable--a difference of +8 (twice the energy to
>penetrate) was almost a sure kill.  In MT, the table is the same, but now
>we have the multiplicative factor (*2 *1/2) to determine high/low
>penetration.  This leads to some severe distortion at the upper end of the
>scale--if my armor is 40, 80 is needed to get a high penetration.  80 is
>2^5 (=32) times thicker than 40.  10 armor only requires 20 (approximately
>double the thickness) to achieve a high penetration.
>
>If I ever run a military campaign with MT, I'll probably make the high/low
>penetration a subtractive difference of 8 rather than a multiplicative 
>difference of 2--the MT system seems to be trying to factor things in
>twice and it doesn't work.
 
I agree wholeheartedly with this.  In fact, the Striker Tables are
Logarithmic above 13.  I noticed this problem when we first acquired the
game, but it was not relevant in our play, since grav tanks never appear in
the course of play.  We haven't had a starship combat since 1990 (one of
our ships was shot up by the Zhos in the FFW).
 
>The second reason I don't like pinpoint hits is back to targetting ability
>in general--I think that if systems are good enough to allow you to pick
a>specific location on a tank that is less than 10% of the visible surface
>area when that tank is a crossing target travelling at Mach 4 200kms away,
>then we shouldn't even bother with a 'to hit' roll for a non-pinpoint
>shot.  Esthetics of the game mechanics don't jive.
 
Probably not.  However, under such extreme conditions, the to hit task
would be essentially impossible anyway, and the extra difficulty of a
pinpoint hit is irrelevant.  Note that a sizable (depending on task
difficulty) fraction of attempted pinpoint hits aren't any such thing.  You
SHOULD be able to TRY to pinpoint.  Whether you succeed is another question
entirely.
 
>Hmmmm...do the dampers roll as against indirect fire rounds (I think so)?
>A TL15 PD system will roll 14-16 dice against indirect fire roounds,
>meaning that the damper could reasonable expect to wipe out 50 or so
>nuclear missiles before being overwhelmed.  Gets expensive...
 
>Collapsing rounds require damper boxes, which are not man-portable, which
>still leaves us with "rifle infantry and a few anti-tank guns".  I
>sometimes think that a better analogy for TL15 infantry would be current
>infantrymen pitted strictly against F-15Es.  Sure, you can carry Stingers,
>but...
 
While Striker did not deal with the question, I doubt there is a good
reason that Damper Boxes cannot be smaller than the 3 ton  basic model.  A
man-portable version can weigh in at much as 150 Kg to get some useful
payload.  Surely between TL13 and TL15 they've worked out the portable box
for the infantry.  Then you fire a collapsing round from an anti-tank
rifle.
May still not be good enough.  In which case, as you say, we are back to
mid-WW2 in terms of infantry use.
 
 
My own analysis of MT/Striker combat produced this:
 
  1)  No grav vehicles will be on the field against a high tech army. 
Densitometers can pick them out and meson guns can be targeted from
anywhere on the planet.  At TL13+, you use ACVs.
 
  2)  No fusion plants either.  Neutrino sensors and meson guns this time. 
Fuel cells, solar, MHD perhaps.  No fusion.  Never.
 
  3)  This mostly means that a stealthy ACV will be the primary transport. 
Yes, a stealthy ACV is a contradiction in terms, but it can only be
detected by things relatively close by, not by sensors on the far side of
the continent.
 
  4)  Therefore the superheavy armour never makes it onto the scene, except
possibly as tracklayers.  Lack of mobility relative to ACVs will relegate
them to fairly minor roles in any mobile campaign.
 
  5) In any case, combat between TL15 troops will be rare.  You won't
conquer a TL15 Hi Pop world with any force that the Imperium can move
through space.  Destroy the world maybe.  Conquer it unlikely.
Most combat will be at TL12-13, and will probably look a lot like the North
Africa campaign -> mobile troops running around madly, infantry sitting
still and just trying to survive, tanks avoiding the infantry whenever
possible, since the infantry have AT guns and Arty, and the tanks are much
safer to play with.

later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3609
From: jdietz@sdcc13.UCSD.EDU (J'Dietz)
Subject: Antares Supernova?
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 1:50:14 PST


Topic 2b of Steve Higginbotham's possible explanations of the Second
Long Night intrigued me, partly because its similarity to Michael
McCollum's novel _Antares Dawn_.  In this novel, interstellar travel
utilized foldpoints produced by some hand-waving super-gravity.
The explosion of Antares changed the structure of the foldpoints for
over 100 ly around, and irradiated the worlds within twenty to forty
ly.
 
My question is, what would a comparable explosion do in Traveller?
I haven't seen the 'Darrians' alien module in question, but I infer
that they have a device for inducing a supernova, whose first and only
test knocked their civilization back to the Stone Age.  Would this
radiation be stopped by nuclear dampers?  Could factions within the
Imperium develop dampers large enough to cover a world for the time
necessary to protect it from the first shockwave from a supernova?
Related to this would be the effect of such an explosion on local
jumpspace.  Since jumpspace exists now, I would find it difficult to
believe that one supernova could destroy jumpspace.  However, because
jumpspace is tied to gravity wells could the gravitic shock wave
disrupt jumps within a particular area, or across the leading wave,
or something similar?
 
A limited action using these devices, or even the chance supernova
of a large and aging star, would make for a most interesting (if far-
fetched) scenario.
- --
Jack Dietz      | Strephon (1049-1116): Forty-third emperor of the Imperium;
jdietz@ucsd.edu |  eldest son of Paulo III (981-1071).  Coronation 1071.
dietz@ucsd.edu  |  Murdered by Dulinor in 1116. -- SMART Library Data 1119
modanis@operations.naval.downport.regina.regina.spinward-marches.deneb

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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Date: Sun Feb  2 21:00:25 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #293: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3610  30-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Naval vessels << > From: Robert S. Dean <
3611  30-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Future Warfare << > > In fact, the M1 Abr
3612  30-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Naval vessels << > > > 6) MORE EXPENSIVE 
3613  30-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Future Warfare PS << > > And if worse com
3614  30-Jan-92 surman@vortex.lgs Hard Times, TL Loss & Ships << With all of th
3615  30-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha fleets, and solutions for same << Rob Dean: >
3616  30-Jan-92 RWALLACE@vax1.tcd High-tech infantry << >Now, the overall battl
3617  30-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha yet more Striker... << Kellogg: >In my opinio
3618  30-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Flight control systems on alien spacecraf
3619  30-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Lift Assisted Launch Vehicles << I always tho
3620  30-Jan-92 Robert S. Dean    Re: Lift Assisted Launch Vehicles << In your 
3621  30-Jan-92 Adrian Hurt       People pulling up roots << Steve_Higginbotham
3622  30-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Naval vessels << Steve Higginbotham write
3623  30-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Boomers << Steve Higginbotham writes: > [
3624  30-Jan-92 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Naval Vessels in Traveller << > >I don't 
3625  30-Jan-92 richard@agora.rai Ergonomics and Pilot Stations << Is someone o
3626  30-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha Navy repairs... << Hans Rancke_Madsen: >>A th

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3610
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Naval vessels
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 14:35:51 MET

> From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
> Subject: (3590)  Re:  (3585) Naval vessels
> 
> The second is that the
> adjustment isn't big enough.  A quick look through my TL15 Glisten Navy
> designs shows that Crew Size * MCr1 is around 1-3% of the purchase price on
> all major warships.  Thus, this rule would only trim down the fleet size by
> 1-3%, which isn't enough to do any good.

  Purchase price? I didn't think the purchase price had to be payed at all,
just the 10% of purchase price cost which pays the purchase (but spread out
during several years) and maintainance. So you should compare the salary to
10% of the purchase price and not 100% of it. This would make the fleed shrink
by 10 to 30% for TL15 and more at lower TL's where larger crews are needed.

> Rob Dean

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3611
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Future Warfare
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 14:44:05 MET

> > In fact, the M1 Abrams is essentially invulnerable to hand held anti-tank
> > weapons.  So is the British Challenger, I am given to understand.
> 
> Yes, and it can be worse in Traveller, since I can arrange things so that
> the M-1 equivalent is armored all-around, instead of mostly in the front.

  Which will invalidate both the advantages of good tactics (catching the
tank from a less protected side) and innovative weapons (that strike the
tank in a location where the armor in thin, like roof, bottom or rear).

  Didn't you do a MT M1A1 equivalent? How much did it weigh and how much armour
did it have?

> Rob Dean

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3612
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re:  Naval vessels
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 14:51:45 MET

> > >  6) MORE EXPENSIVE HARDPOINTS: This will also cure the problem with 30kt
> > >freighters who have a missile turret on every hardpoint "since they are
> > >practically free compared to the cost of the ship". Each hardpoint should
> > >cause a noticable percentage increase in hull cost and weight due to
> > >reinforcements (This is BTW the reason why we don't see any supertankers
> > >mounting 10 127mm naval guns today). A spinal mount should lead to such
> > >extreme increases in hull weight and cost that it would be impossible to
> > >make a spinal-mount armed vessel above, say 40kt, unthinkably expensive
> > >between 30 and 40kt, and very expensive between 20 and 30kt.
> 
> A better way is to consider the price of missiles.  At Cr50000 each, a bay
> shoots off MCr1.25 with each volley.  As to supertankers and guns, I must
> point out that missile racks and lasers are recoilless weapons, and would
> not require structural reinforcement.

  This would affect the PC's capability of popping off missiles like pop-corn
too so it has it's disadvantages.

  Why keep all missiles equal: Striker assumes that bay missiles are 25cm
diameter while turret missiles are just 15cm diameter. It would be easy to
increase the size of the missiles. A cubical 50ton bay should be 8.7 meters
in each axis, so bay missiles could easily be as big as modern-day torpedoes
(even the type 65 650mm:) and carry warheads of up to 500kg.
 
> Rob Dean

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3613
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Future Warfare PS
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 14:58:15 MET

> > And if worse comes to worse, use collapsing rounds, nuclear weapons, and
> > all that good stuff.  A collapsing round CAN be stopped, but its NOT easy,
> > and it will trash pretty much anything it hits.  The Nucs are more
> > vulnerable (to Dampers), but dampers are treated like Point defense weapons
> > - they CAN be saturated.  Toss enough Nukes, and some will get through.
> 
> Hmmmm...do the dampers roll as against indirect fire rounds (I think so)?
> A TL15 PD system will roll 14-16 dice against indirect fire roounds, meaning
> that the damper could reasonable expect to wipe out 50 or so nuclear missiles
> before being overwhelmed.  Gets expensive...

  I think all PD weapons has to see the rounds for at least 50cm (500m?) to
be able to counter them. This is stated explicitely for countering direct
fire rounds, but it should be true for all rounds. I think they didn't mention
this when talking about artillery PD because most artillery will easily
be seen for much more than 500m before impact.
 
  So the infantry could use recoilless rifles with nuclear rounds to take out
almost any target no matter how hard it is.

The 'Davy Crocket' nuke bazooka rides again:)

> Rob Dean

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3614
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 08:10:42 CST
From: surman@vortex.lgs.lsu.edu (Michael A. Surman)
Subject: Hard Times, TL Loss & Ships

With all of the discussion about Hard Times and Tech Level loss no
one has yet mentioned the social dynamics at work. What about
the social pressures exerted by the populace of a planet?

The first place people look to solve problems like this is the
government. Especially if it's democratic in nature. What were all
the taxes collected for anyway? Officials were elected to solve
problems and people will demand a solution. Their public officials
will be the first place they'll turn to. And there will be a solution
even if it includes impeachment or revolt. People won't sit around
and let things happen. They are used to a better life and won't settle
for anything less.

And don't forget the governments themselves. What government will
want to be less techonological than it was before? It will make every
effort to recover and as quickly as it can. It may mean the poplulace
has to do without some items and luxuries but if it can convince the
people they will concede to its programs. And if that doesn't work a
new form a government will take over. One with a military flavor. 
Who else controls the power. It was mentioned in previous postings:
there should be more Hitlers, Stalins, Khans, et.al. popping up all
over the place.

What do the historians, anthopologists and psycologists have to say?
Are there any on the TML?

On another note:
 d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se writes:
>  What I'd like the Traveller universe to be is a place where traders on up
>to 200kt, and fleet tankers of even larger tonnages are common, but where
>these ships have at most a handful of turrets and where a 'battleship' is
>somewhere on the order 20-30kt (destroyers: around 1 to 3kt, cruisers around
>10kt, carriers around 30kt, but lightly armed).
>
>  What do people think about this goal?

I agree! I brought up a similar point a few months ago. Why aren't 
there larger ships? To me it would be more economical when shipping 
goods and passengers. And the military always likes bigger and better
new toys!

Mike Surman



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3615
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 09:41:47 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: fleets, and solutions for same

Rob Dean:
 
>Maybe we should approach this problem backwards:  How many ships do we
>think a fleet should have, and what kind of taxation rate does that
>give us?  How many of the folks involved in this discussion have a copy
>of Fifth Frontier War?  What do you think of the fleet levels there, in
>terms of effect on play of the role-playing game?  Still too big?
 
A fleet should have enough ships to patrol the volume of space which is
their responsibility.  The FFW game includes enough ships to do that if
we assume 5-15 ships per squadron.  It is still enough to make piracy an
awfully iffy proposition - too much chance of the Navy being aroud to
spoil the fun.
 
Personally, I like the idea of producing a treaty of perpetual
friendship with the Consulate, and starting a second Solomani Rim War. 
This will suck most of the ships to the far side of the Imperium, and
KEEP THEM THERE!  The Navy ceases to be a problem unless you are in the
Solomani Rim.  Of course, if your campaign is over there, reverse the
process:  peace there, war in the Marches, the ships leave anyway.
 
 
Bertil writes:
 
>  This will, if done right, also cure another problem: The dilemma of 
>30kt freighters and 30kt light cruisers. We all know that the Imperium
>need a lot of 30kt freighters for the commerce to work. We also know
>that if it is that easy to build 30kt ships we will get too many
>cruisers for the pirates to handle. We also know that each one of those
>30kt freighters can mount a horrifying fire-power compared to a 400t
>corsair.
 
But how about against a 10000ton corsair?
 
>*********
>  What I'd like the Traveller universe to be is a place where traders
>on up to 200kt, and fleet tankers of even larger tonnages are common,
>but where  these ships have at most a handful of turrets and where a
>'battleship' is somewhere on the order 20-30kt (destroyers: around 1 to
>3kt, cruisers around 10kt, carriers around 30kt, but lightly armed).
>  
>  What do people think about this goal?
 
Nice goal...  Not very likely that your warships will be that small,
though.  In the Real World, battleships and Carriers are smaller than
supertankers, but are larger than everything else afloat.  If a
"supertanker" is a million tonner, then a battleship or carrier would be
about 200,000 tons.
 
>  5) MILITARY SPENDING COST INCREASE: If the Imperium has gigacreds to
>waste on a navy, the manufacturers will see to it that the price on
>military ships skyrocket. So the Navy will pay more for a given ships
>than a civilian would.  This will probably be blamed on mil-specing,
>MCr4 coffemachines and so on.
 
That is not why military equipment costs so much.  It has more to do
with short production runs and high research costs.  Unfortunately, in
the Imperium, the research was all done 100-10000 years ago, and the
production runs are quite large (thousands of copies of each ship?).
 
>           (This is BTW the reason why we don't see any supertankers
>mounting 10 127mm naval guns today).
 
Actually, we see few supertankers with 10 127mm naval guns because it is
against the law in most countries to put weapons like that on privately
owned ships.  Note that in WW2,we DID see merchants mounting heavy guns.
 
>  7) FIRECONTROL: If we make the cost of the firecontrol highly
>dependent on the number of turrets or bays we can inflate the costs of
>large ships mounting more turrets than the referee care for, and
>inflate the cost of military ships in one fell swoop.
 
I doubt it.  If we do that, the ships will just look more like my
Sikkintar (one BIG gun).  the price change won't affect anything except
Naval design doctrine.
 
>  9) MILITARY WEAPONS: Turrets and bays are more or less equal today.
>If the effectiveness of turrets upon military vessels is lowered (due
>to armour?), all military ships will be forced to have bays or spinals
>to be usable against other military vessels. Then we let the prices for
>bay weapons and spinal  mounts skyrocket to such levels that no
>civilian will afford them.
>  Turret defences should not work very well against bay weapons and we
>should probably introduce a series of bay lasers and sandcasters for
>military vessels.
>  There will still be some turret weapons on military vessels, but
>their  purpose would be to keep the civilian ships in line.
 
Again, unlikely.  If you do that, then civilian ships will armor
themselves to be "pirate-proof", and pirates will arm themselves with
bay weapons.  In any case it will have little effect on Naval vessels. 
If bays cost too much, they'll use a cheaper alternative, or just raise
taxes to pay the difference.
Remember, the Military is in the business of wasting money.
 
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3616
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1992 11:33 GMT
From: RWALLACE@vax1.tcd.ie
Subject: High-tech infantry

>Now, the overall battlefield situation is not brought to the level of
>the 14th century, where armored men had a hard time injuring each other on the
>battlefield because power generation technology and energy weapon technology
>keeps up with  armor technology, and it is impossible to design a tank so well
>armored that some sort of weapon can't punch through it.  The trouble is, from
>the point of view of the infantry, that that weapon is likely to weigh 3/4 of
>a ton and require another 5-6 tons of power plant to support it.  That makes
>it non-portable, even for battledress equipped infantry, except of course by
>their carriers, which are effectively tanks.

This is not what I find when designing weapons systems for future wars. To
be sure, there are fundamental limits on how powerful man-portable weapons
dependent on chemical explosives can be. But then, there are also fundamental
limits on how tough armor made of theoretically possible materials can be.
So you have the same situation as has prevailed since WWI: a continual arms
race between tank armor and infantry anti-tank weapons, with neither able
to gain a permanent edge.

However, while armor not made of atomic matter is theoretically impossible,
weapons not dependent on chemical explosives are not. Once you get to the
stage where a fusion gun can be made man-portable (the Traveller "FGMP-16"
is based on this idea, though the effect is greatly understated), then as
far as I can see, armored vehicles become redundant because a fusion gun
is basically a straight-line hydrogen bomb; you could blow away an Iowa-
class battleship with one like a china plate in a shooting gallery, never
mind a tank.

Of course, before you get man-portable fusion guns, you will have them
carried on tanks, though tanks would probably still retain armor for
protection against artillery and infantry weapons.

The only way I can see out of this (unless and until you allow force-fields
to be developed, but these are *seriously* high technology if possible at all)
is to assume that there is a rule (written or unwritten) against using nuclear
weapons, including fusion guns, on an inhabited planet.

Now you said something about "superdense armor" in the Striker rules, which
I assume is some sort of theoretically *impossible* armor, which can
withstand any man-portable conventional weapon; but if this is what is
causing your problem, why not simply remove it and improve the realism while
you're at it?

"To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem"
Russell Wallace, Trinity College, Dublin
rwallace@vax1.tcd.ie

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3617
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 11:01:57 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: yet more Striker...

 
Kellogg:
 
>In my opinion, The Infantry is generally going to be less and less a
>part of front line operations.  Sure they are needed for securing areas
>and pacification, but even a man in TL 16 Battle Dress hip deep in
>sensors will be no match for a 10 ton 6G fighter with a 250MW laser
>functioning as a tank.
 
Probably not.  Will 30 men in battledress be a match for such a weapon? 
That equates cost of the two systems to deploy.  Probably still not.  30
infantry with normal weapons today are not a match for an F15E either,
but they still are needed on the battlefield.
 
>Primarily, the man in the battle dress is mainly gonna be a forward
>observer.  Armed with the most deadly weapon known to man:  The Radio.
 
I can agree with this without reservation.  That is his primary purpose
today, and at all times since WW1.
 
Keep in mind the primary advantage of infantry as opposed to armour: 
Infantry has a much more finely developed sense of self-preservation. 
They hide a lot better, too.  Infantry are pretty hard to root out if
they don't want to be, as Iwo Jima and other battlefields (Vietnam comes
to mind) have shown.
 
>On the other hand, there is one weapon I have been turning over in my
>mind as an idle thought.  How about a man portable meson accelerator? 
>After all they are currently meson accelerators in surgury.  In Striker
>there is a 250MW meson accelerator for use as artillery.  It has a HUGE
>destructive power.  Well, a small one wouldn't need all the power.  And
>once you are inside the armor of a tank, you don't NEED a lot of
>destructive energy to bring it down.
 
Lovely idea.  Fire control would be somewhat of a bear, though.  Still,
all in all, as a TL16 infantry weapon, it has a lot of promise.
 
 
 
Bertil:
 
> > > In fact, the M1 Abrams is essentially invulnerable to hand held
anti-tank
> > > weapons.  So is the British Challenger, I am given to understand.
 
> > Yes, and it can be worse in Traveller, since I can arrange things so
that
> > the M-1 equivalent is armored all-around, instead of mostly in the
front.
 
>  Which will invalidate both the advantages of good tactics (catching
>the tank from a less protected side) and innovative weapons (that
>strike the tank in a location where the armor in thin, like roof,
>bottom or rear).
 
It sure will.  So what?  Tactics and design theories change as
technology does.  Fact of Life.
 
 
 
>   I think all PD weapons has to see the rounds for at least 50cm
>(500m?) to be able to counter them. This is stated explicitely for
>countering direct fire rounds, but it should be true for all rounds. I
>think they didn't mention this when talking about artillery PD because
>most artillery will easily be seen for much more than 500m before
>impact.
 
PD weapons must see the rounds for at least 150m (15cm).
Nuclear Dampers do twice as many dice of interdict as a point defense
weapon of the same TL.
 
>  So the infantry could use recoilless rifles with nuclear rounds to
>take out almost any target no matter how hard it is.
>
>The 'Davy Crocket' nuke bazooka rides again:)
 
More likely a nuke-tipped tac-missile, but you have the general idea.
 
BTW, Rob, when you determined the pen59 maximum, did that include IR
follow-up missile, which increase penetration by 8?  And presumably the
SECOND IR follow-up, which does 8 more.  And the third, and the fourth,
and...
 
And don't forget to extend the HEAP penetration table down 7 more places
for those TL13+ 36cm HEAP rounds.  Penetration should jump to 66, then.
 
And if you design the ultimate armoured vehicle using MT (instead of
Striker), keep in mind that MT armour has NO VOLUME.  It distorts
reality slightly, to say the least.
 
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3618
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1992 12:22 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re:  Flight control systems on alien spacecraft

Andrew pointed out that the Vilani dispise extra technology, and therefore
would avoid auto-pilots.

Well, my understanding of the Vilani mindset, is that they want to USE the
technology, but avoid understanding it like the plague.  Thus their engineers
use advanced diagnostic computer programs to keep their drives going.

Well, in flight training, you quickly learn that you GOTTA understand the
machinery that is keeping you in the air, and keeping you ALIVE.  If some
Vilani pilot considers it beneath him to know what a fuel shut off valve does,
or that he should keep an eye on the tachometer, or that he should understand
wether or not the alternator is working, he'd BETTER have some computer doing
it for him.

I find in the cockpit, you spend roughly equal amounts of time monitoring the
instruments as you do watching out for traffic.  If Mr. Vilani doesn't feel
like watching the gauges, he will be dead, Dead, DEAD.  Thus auto-pilots to
assist.

Scott Kellogg
"Let's Go Down!"  --Darkwing Ducvax

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3619
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1992 12:46 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Lift Assisted Launch Vehicles

I always thought that the 10* rule to reach low planetary orbit was kinda
dumb.

After all, any vehicle that is capable of reaching orbit is going to have to
have a thrust to weight ratio of greater than one anyway.  Therefore, the
aircraft could effectively go verticle and climb out as a normal rocket!

You take off normally from a runway, and after you've climbed a few hundred
feet, pull the nose up.  WAY up.  If you've got the engines, you don't NEED
lift!

However, in my view, anything that is going to 'Fly' ie with wings and lift
and not rockets pointing down, you HAVE to design it with COACC.  I sort of
agree with Rob about the extra cost of the airframe, but I'm not really sure.
The X-15 was a hypersonic airframe, and it could have handled re-entry if
it came in slow enough.  So, maybe they would cost extra, maybe that's already
included.  I don't know.  But, I would say that the added cost it probably
not gonna be all that much compared to the rest of the ship.  (unless it's
really huge)  And besides, the costs in this case are relatively unimportant.
Players aren't gonna be buying one of these anyway.  So, *I* think the extra
cost could be seen as trivial.

Scott Kellogg
"Let's Go Down!" --Darkwing Ducvax

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3620
Date:     Thu, 30 Jan 92 13:53:51 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Lift Assisted Launch Vehicles

In your letter dated Thu, 30 Jan 1992 12:46 CDT, you wrote:
>
> However, in my view, anything that is going to 'Fly' ie with wings and lift
> and not rockets pointing down, you HAVE to design it with COACC.  I sort of
> agree with Rob about the extra cost of the airframe, but I'm not really sure.
> The X-15 was a hypersonic airframe, and it could have handled re-entry if
> it came in slow enough. 

There is a diagram of an X-15 flight profile in the proceedings of the
"30th anniversary of the first X-15 flight" conference that was held at the
NASA Dryden center a few years ago, which showed that the X-15 climbed above
99% of the atmosphere.  I suppose that qualifies for re-entry, although it
did not have orbital speed, and the heat would therefore have been less.

I agree with Scott, though, it really shouldn't matter to the players since
I would not expect them to own one.  Operate one, yes, but not own one.

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3621
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: People pulling up roots
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 10:39:09 GMT

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham) writes:
>
> And I am sure that the number of people who will be willing to move away
> from their homeworlds are not appreciably greater than the number of
> people today who leave their home countries to seek better
> opportunities.  Some do, for sure, but if they all did, then Germany
> would have been depopulated after WW2.  VERY few people can pull up
> their roots and walk away from everything they've ever known for the
> CHANCE of better times elsewhere.

Make that East Germany, and then guess why the Berlin Wall went up.  In
1989, the people of East Germany finally figured out, in large numbers,
how to get out without crossing the Wall.  I'd say that it was more than
"VERY few people" that did indeed pull up their roots and head for the
West for the chance of better times.

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3622
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Naval vessels
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 21:05:00 MET

Steve Higginbotham writes:
>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
>
>>There's two ways to attack this problem: You can reduce the money each
>>world contributes to the navy, and you can reduce the amount of ship
>>the navy gets for each credit. I'm working on something wrt the first
>>approach, but in this posting I'd like to present some of my ideas for
>>the second and would like to hear your comments.
>
>A third way:  increase the size of each ship.  Under standard rules, a
>5000 ton free trader would require a crew of four.  If all ships were
>built to the limit of their controls, each ship would be much bigger,
>and there would be both fewer ships, and less disparity between small
>ships and large ones.

Don't you think that player-sized starships are expensive
enough already?

>
>>1) SALARIES: _Trillion Credit Squadron_ instructs us to ignore crew
>>salaries.
>>  I'd rather regard it as a legitimate drain on the naval budget.
>
>TCS ignores crew salaries by making maintenance costs 100 times as high
>as standard MT.  The extra 99x represents the costs of crews, bases,
>training centers, recruiting posters, etc.

There's something wrong with the economy then. If it cost your entire
naval budget just to run the fleet you have, how do you pay for repairs
and replacements?

>>2) INERTIAL COMPENSATORS: I'd like to increase the size and power
>>  requirements of inertial compensators to be proportional to the
>>  acceleration they are supposed to compensate for.
>
>Not totally unreasonable.  Not in accord with MT definition of Inertial
>compensators, either...  Even so, it is a trivial addition to the cost
>of a ship.  For example, a 100,000 ton TL15 cruiser (snatched at random
>from "shattered ships..") would cost an extra MCr337.5 (to as much as
>MCr 1687.5 for a six-G ship) out of a total cost of MCr397,217.  An
>increase of 0.085% to total cost.  Who cares?

You're looking at it the wrong way round. By making that ship
MCrimp 1687.5 more expensive I've just cost the navy 10 patrol
cruisers  -  20 if we also use my extra durability rule. Still,
you're right that's it's not enough in itself. Which is why I
asked for help. Bertil's already come up with some good stuff.
But as for trivial, every little bit helps :-)

>>4) DURABILITY: Tactically this reliance on annual maintenance is not a
>>  good thing. If a war is just 5 jumps away from a naval vessel's
>>  base, it will be travelling to a from annual maintenance 3 months
>>  out of every year.

>Nonetheless, this is MT's picture.  Try FFW (Fifth Frontier War)
>sometime.  Imperial ships DON'T fight that far from their bases.

Except when GDW conviniently forgets that and lets Terran Confederation
fleets penetrate to Vland and Aslan ihatei attack Aki. Naval ships don't
_like_ to fight far from a base  -  who would  -  but it's not unreasonable
to suppose that the various admiralties would plan for it.

>Besides, improvements such as you suggest would make those annoying
>Naval vessels only about half as numerous, and twice as ubiquitous.  If
>they could cruise that far from their bases, they.d be EVERYWHERE!

Not true. Ordinary patrols don't go on 5 year patrols under the present
system, true. But they don't go on 1 year patrols either. They move about
in a 2-3 month circuit ending up where they started out. So at the moment
they're only out of the running 2 weeks in every 52. The same would apply
if they had a potential 5 year cruising range. But there would only be
half as many.

>> A good engineer should be able to keep a ship flying for two
>> or three years before the negative DMs for missed overhauls actually
>> began to apply.
>
>Agreed.  But how to implement?  Notice the rules in Starship Operator's
>Manual on Annual Maintenance.  Carry the spare parts, and the job is
>simple with the crew doing it's own maintenance continuously.

I'll have a look through SOM and see if I can come up with a suggestion.

>>  Secondly allow a ship to be build with more durable materials and
>>  higher system redundancies, if one is willing to pay. Perhaps one
>>  extra year for each 25% extra money spent.
>
>Sure.  Install a second jump drive, maneuver drive, sensor platform,
>computer, etc.  Why be arbitrary about the price?  You want redundancy,
>buy it from the standard rules.  See Leviathan for details.

Well, for one thing my rule is wonderfully simple. Just add umpteen
percent to the price. And easy to implement: Just extend the time
allowed between overhauls by one year per 25% extra paid and
make the overhaul last two weeks per year since the last one.

>> Naval vessels would routinely be build for 5 year missions ;-), so
>>  they would cost double the price of an equivalent civilian ship.

>That would still leave 100,000 + naval vessels out there cluttering up
>the Imperium, and getting in everyone else's way.

Right, so we need something more. Why does everybody seem to assume that
we can only use one fix on this very serious problem?

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3623
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Boomers
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 21:14:53 MET

Steve Higginbotham writes:
> [Scott Kellogg:]
> >Maybe Steve Higginbotham can give us a clue as to how long Boomers go
> >bettween overhauls?
>
> A boomer goes five to ten years between major overhauls.  The reactor is
> refuelled every 15 years (more or less).  Minor overhauls happen every two
> to three years.  Maintenance happens 18+ hours of every day underway, and
> perhaps 12-15 hours per day in port.

So at least my extra durability suggestion is not all that unreasonable.

(Btw. what's a Boomer?)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "This gives a possible range of 56 to 178 starships
         total  in the three Terran starport facilities,  a
         believable quantity for such a star system."

        "We have a maximum of 178 ships in port, and (as it
         is a busy star system)  we will say that there are
         70 docking berths at the Phoenix facility."

                        ---Journal of the Traveller's
                           Aid Society # 18

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3624
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Naval Vessels in Traveller
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 21:32:28 MET

>
>I don't like the way there are so many fleets either.
>
>But I don't like having to go to a different system of vehicle construction
>just to rectify it.  I think playing with the accounts is more likely to bear
>fruit than changing the vehicle design system.  For one thing, you end up
>turning out vehicles that are incompatible with the rest of the system.  I
>don't wanna have to come up with my own design every time when I need a ship.
>Neither do I want to design ships that no one else can use unless they
>subscribe to my particular variant.

That's a valid point. But you know, I could much easier use a ship with
slightly incompatible design than a universe that has a serious logical
flaw in it. And I can ignore ship design discrepancies much easier than
discrepancies in the background universe. I could cure the problem with
too many ships easily by making up my own frontier area from the Imperium
where there are no high-pop planets within 30 parsecs. But I'd rather stay
in The Spinward Marches. So what if my ships all use 6 times as many inertial
compensators as the ones I copy from you? If that really bothers me I'll
just let your ships come from a planet that made really efficient ships. One
planet isn't going to be much of a problem, there's a limit to how many
ships one planet can build ("Sorry, no, our spaceyards are booked up solid
for the next three decades").

>Rob Dean and I came up with a variant rule where the construction rules made
>no sense.  But I annotate the difference for the ship's I put out, and send
>the conversion for it to the normal system as well.

Well, IMO some aspects of the Traveller universe dosen't make sense
(others are great, which is why I'd like to fix the ones that dosen't).

>Here's another cost I think should be added into naval vessels:
>Vac suits for the entire crew.

Ouch! ;-)

Touche. Let me retract the bit about every little bit helping ;-)
I admit that some expenses are too trivial to bother with.
Nevertheless, A couple of percent here and a couple of percent
there is not really all that trivial when we're talking multi-
thousand T starships.

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3625
From: richard@agora.rain.COM (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Ergonomics and Pilot Stations
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 13:08:55 EST

Is someone out there good enough at drawing/sketching/rendering
to produce some thumbnails of Scott's proposals for pilot stations
for various races?  That way we could actually *look* at them.
- -- 
Richard Johnson     richard@agora.rain.com

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3626
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 16:01:08 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: Navy repairs...

Hans Rancke_Madsen:
 
>>A third way:  increase the size of each ship.  Under standard rules, a
>>5000 ton free trader would require a crew of four.  If all ships were
>>built to the limit of their controls, each ship would be much bigger,
>>and there would be both fewer ships, and less disparity between small
>>ships and large ones.
>
>Don't you think that player-sized starships are expensive
>enough already?
 
They sure are.  That's why Cynthia and I have been re-writing the rules
to lower ship prices.  However, it doesn't really matter how much the
ship costs, if it will pay for itself.  BUsinesses do not tie up capital
in new purchases.  They BORROW the entire amount, with the new purchase
as collateral.  So your PCs have to borrow MCr3000, instead of MCr30. 
If the ship makes a profit, it will be no problem.
 
Seriously, I doubt that you should design piracy around the assumption
that the average pirate is as small as a PC's ship.  The average pirate
should be 10-50 times as big as a PC's ship.  If it were smaller, it
couldn't survive when the Navy came after it (It probably won't anyway,
but that is another problem...).  A pirate ship should be converted from
a bulk hauler (Hercules class (5000t), World class (3000t), Leviathon
class (1800t)).  That way you get enough ship to do the job.  Face it,
the pirate probably has to steal the ship anyway.  So he'll steal a good
one.
 
 
>>TCS ignores crew salaries by making maintenance costs 100 times as
>>high as standard MT.  The extra 99x represents the costs of crews,
>>bases, training centers, recruiting posters, etc.
>
>There's something wrong with the economy then. If it cost your entire
>naval budget just to run the fleet you have, how do you pay for repairs
>and replacements?
 
Reread TCS.  That is the assumption about the MAXIMUM Navy size.  If you
need newer ships, decommission some of the old ones.  Or maintain your
Navy at less than full size.  Note also that the Budget multiplier goes
UP in wartime.  So you can afford to buy some new stuff then.
In the Real World, the size of the military establishment is at the
maximum that the budget allows.  When the budget goes up, buy new ships,
raise new regiments.  When it drops, mothball ships and retire
regiments.
 
 
>>Not totally unreasonable.  Not in accord with MT definition of
>>Inertial compensators, either...  Even so, it is a trivial addition to
>>the cost of a ship.  For example, a 100,000 ton TL15 cruiser (snatched
>>at random from "shattered ships..") would cost an extra MCr337.5 (to
>>as much as MCr 1687.5 for a six-G ship) out of a total cost of
>>MCr397,217.  An increase of 0.085% to total cost.  Who cares?
>
>You're looking at it the wrong way round. By making that ship
>MCrimp 1687.5 more expensive I've just cost the navy 10 patrol
>cruisers  -  20 if we also use my extra durability rule. Still,
>you're right that's it's not enough in itself. Which is why I
>asked for help. Bertil's already come up with some good stuff.
>But as for trivial, every little bit helps :-)
 
Actually, we'll knock back 10 either way.  Presumably the patrol
cruisers will be built that way too.
As to the "every little bit helps" assertion, that's true.  But since
you can buy 2400+ patrol cruisers for every Heavy cruiser, the Navy can
still have as many as before.  They'll build fewer major warships, but
little stuff is easier to sneak onto the budget, so the little stuff
will be unaffected.
 
 
>>Nonetheless, this is MT's picture.  Try FFW (Fifth Frontier War)
>>sometime.  Imperial ships DON'T fight that far from their bases.
>
>Except when GDW conviniently forgets that and lets Terran Confederation
>fleets penetrate to Vland and Aslan ihatei attack Aki. Naval ships
>don't _like_ to fight far from a base  -  who would  -  but it's not
>unreasonable to suppose that the various admiralties would plan for it.
 
GDW has always had consistency problems.  I doubt that they would bother
to.  Notice that before WW2, NOBODY did any serious planning about
operations far from bases.  That's why the major powers had Treaty Bases
scattered all over the world.  That's also why Hitler lost the Battle of
Britain - his planes were designed to operate within a hundred miles of
their fields, and suffered when they had to go as far as England.
 
 
>>Besides, improvements such as you suggest would make those annoying
>>Naval vessels only about half as numerous, and twice as ubiquitous. 
>>If they could cruise that far from their bases, they.d be EVERYWHERE!
>
>Not true. Ordinary patrols don't go on 5 year patrols under the present
>system, true. But they don't go on 1 year patrols either. They move
>about in a 2-3 month circuit ending up where they started out. So at
>the moment they're only out of the running 2 weeks in every 52. The
>same would apply if they had a potential 5 year cruising range. But
>there would only be half as many.
 
Not true.  Some Batrons and Crurons hit their bases about once a year. 
Specifically those operating in the Trojan Reaches and Five Sisters and
Jewell.  Imperial Navy ships in the Marches and Reaches only have FOUR
worlds that can maintain them (Mora, Trin, Glisten, Rhylanor).  And none
are especially close to those operating areas.  Sure, they stop at some
Navy base every few months, but they don't stop where they need to get
maintenance that often.  If they did, the Impy Navy would NEVER GET TO
JEWELL.  It takes three months just to get there from Rhylanor, much
less back home for maintenance.
 
 
>Well, for one thing my rule is wonderfully simple. Just add umpteen
f*>percent to the price. And easy to implement: Just extend the time
>allowed between overhauls by one year per 25% extra paid and
>make the overhaul last two weeks per year since the last one.
 
Do you want your PCs doing this too?  Never allow an element into a game
unless you prepared to let your PCs acquire (read:steal) it.
 
BTW, It doesn't bother me at all.  I like exploration adventures anyway,
and your system would make the mission (presently being planned) beyond
the Consulate MUCH easier.  The PCs doing the mission have plenty of
money.  That's as good a way as any to spend some of it.
 
 
>>That would still leave 100,000 + naval vessels out there cluttering up
>>the Imperium, and getting in everyone else's way.
>
>Right, so we need something more. Why does everybody seem to assume
>that we can only use one fix on this very serious problem?
 
I don't.  But the more complex the solution, the less likely it is to be
implemented.  KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) applies.  If you waste time
looking at partial solutions that raise the price a percent or two,
you'll start to look like the Gentlemen (I use the word with
reservations) in Congress (USA, of course).  They tackle the budget
deficit every year.  They trim back $50million here and there, and are
proud of themselves.  Of course, the deficit is measured in tens (or
hundreds) of BILLIONS, but they've saved us $50,000,000 and should be
patted on the back for DEALING WITH THAT OLD BUDGET PROBLEM.
 
Look for REALLY MAJOR ways of cutting things back!  If it doesn't cut
out 75% of the Navy, then you are not thinking big enough.  Cut Taxes!
Have the Navy waste A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY doing research into
disintegrators/proton beams/antimatter systems.  Use research programs
as holes to throw money into.  Start a program to refurbish all
howevermany Depots up to TL16 standards, with yard facilities equivalent
to Trin's.  Look at the problem as if you were a Congressman form
Nevada, and you wanted as much as possible of the Naval budget spent in
your district.  D@#! the Navy.  My constituents need jobs!
 
 
>So at least my extra durability suggestion is not all that
>unreasonable.
>
>(Btw. what's a Boomer?)
 
A Fleet Ballistic Missile Submarine.  Specifically, the cycle I
described is that for a SSBN-640 class boomer.  (I was on SSBN-642 USS
Kamehameha).
 
No, the extra durability suggestion is not unreasonable.  Possibly
unnecessary, but not unreasonable.
 
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

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From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #294: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3627  31-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: fleets, and solutions for same << > From:
3628  31-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: yet more Striker... << > Date: Thu, 30 Ja
3629  31-Jan-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha How the Imperium Fell: Now the Truth can be t
3630  31-Jan-92 Adrian Hurt       Combat psionics << Robert S. Dean <rsdean@crd
3631  31-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha more fleet actions... << Bertil: > 10)STRUCTU
3632  31-Jan-92 Steve_Higginbotha more striker still... << Bertil: >>>>In fact,

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3627
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: fleets, and solutions for same
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 92 12:34:36 MET

> From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
> Subject: (3615) fleets, and solutions for same
> 
> >We also know that each one of those
> >30kt freighters can mount a horrifying fire-power compared to a 400t
> >corsair.
>  
> But how about against a 10000ton corsair?

  It outnumbers it three to one in turrets if it uses all available hardpoints.
This will cost MCr675 if we assume 300 triple missile turrets, but probably
less since a part of them will be sandcasters. A 10kt SIE Behemoth costs
MCr1537, so the 30kt should cost at least MCr4611. The armaments will
thus represent a cost increase of 15% not counting computers. Parity with
the corsair (100 turrets) will be achieved at a cost increase of 5%.

> >  What I'd like the Traveller universe to be is a place where traders
> >on up to 200kt, and fleet tankers of even larger tonnages are common,
> >but where  these ships have at most a handful of turrets and where a
> >'battleship' is somewhere on the order 20-30kt (destroyers: around 1 to
> >3kt, cruisers around 10kt, carriers around 30kt, but lightly armed).
> >  
> >  What do people think about this goal?
>  
> Nice goal...  Not very likely that your warships will be that small,
> though.

  10)STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY: Building an 1MT starship that has to stand
up to 6G of acceleration and weapon impacts demands very strong materials.
I suspect that such materials don't exist today. There is a certain maximum
size for each combination of material strength and structural stress,
and this will set the maximum size for all ships. Any larger than that they
will (in extreme cases) tear themselves apart when going at full throttle
or crack as an egg shell when hit in combat.
  Civilian ships don't have to handle the same levels of stress as 
military ships, so they have a larger maximum size (and cost less for an
equal tonnage). You could say that this is already present in the armour 
rules today, but armour is voluntary while this would be a compulsory
factor.

  An example: A 10kt hull at TL15 will have to weigh X metric tons and have
Y kubic meters (kilolitres for you MT-damaged:) of interior space wasted
on structural components if it is going to be able to pull 6 Gees and stand
on it's own in combat. More than this and it becomes more durable and less
than this and it becomes more frail(1).
  The same size and TL of hull but rated for 1G civilian duty only would
perhaps only weigh 1/4 of the other hull and have a tenth of the interior
space taken up by structural components.


 (1) This ties in closely to the use of hull-points and armour. I'd like to
suggest that the number of hullpoints be based the size of the hull and
modified for the ships 'fragility factor': A 10kt hull has 10000 points as
a base. If it is the 1G trader it will only have 2500 points while a 
6G combat-rated cruiser would have 15000 hull point (or even larger 
difference). These practical hullpoints can be increased with interior
strenghtening to copy the strengthening effect of increased armour in 
TDR VEH. Armour will thus mean the actual hull plating, and not hull plating
plus interial strengthening.
  There should also be a minimum level of hull points for each level of G
the ship can pull and a mimimum level for jump dependent on the tonnage and so
on. If the ship violates those it will begin to suffer catastrophic effects. 
The effects of weapons depends on the damamge of the weapon compared to the 
hull points remaining.
  Hull tonnage relates to basic hull points non-linearly (somebody suggested
this some time ago: I remember a square root being involved somewhere but 
those messages is lost now) to discourage humongous battleships being able
to absorbe ludicrous amounts of damage without visible effect.

> That is not why military equipment costs so much.  It has more to do
> with short production runs and high research costs.

  When working in a place where all chips we used could stand severe 
temperature changes :) I came upon a little analogue chip called the 4741 
which contained 4 741 operational amplifyers. If you buy the civilian 
version I'd expect it to cost less than 10 cents, but the little 4741 in
a cheramic capsule and all costs around $8.

  The big question is: Is there a difference in MTBF (Mean Time Between
Failures) between military and civilian starships?

> >           (This is BTW the reason why we don't see any supertankers
> >mounting 10 127mm naval guns today).
>  
> Actually, we see few supertankers with 10 127mm naval guns because it is
> against the law in most countries to put weapons like that on privately
> owned ships.  Note that in WW2,we DID see merchants mounting heavy guns.

  Yes, but never as many guns and of as big calibre as a warship of equal
tonnage. There is today a Russian fleet replenishment ship that is armed 
with a small number (3 I think) of naval medium calibre guns, but going
from it's tonnage we'd expect it to be much more heavily armed: Two SAM
systems, one SSM system, ASW mortars, torpedo tubes, CIWS and so on.

> >  7) FIRECONTROL: If we make the cost of the firecontrol highly
> >dependent on the number of turrets or bays we can inflate the costs of
> >large ships mounting more turrets than the referee care for, and
> >inflate the cost of military ships in one fell swoop.
>  
> I doubt it.  If we do that, the ships will just look more like my
> Sikkintar (one BIG gun).  the price change won't affect anything except
> Naval design doctrine.

  It will encourage naval ships to mount bays instead of turrets, since
each turret battery consists of many turrets (many FC's) while a bay is
one large turret (one FC). It would also encourage civilian ships 
(who can't afford the expensive bays) to keep the number of turrets down.

> >  9) MILITARY WEAPONS: Turrets and bays are more or less equal today.
> >If the effectiveness of turrets upon military vessels is lowered (due
> >to armour?), all military ships will be forced to have bays or spinals
> >to be usable against other military vessels. Then we let the prices for
> >bay weapons and spinal  mounts skyrocket to such levels that no
> >civilian will afford them.
> >  Turret defences should not work very well against bay weapons and we
> >should probably introduce a series of bay lasers and sandcasters for
> >military vessels.
> >  There will still be some turret weapons on military vessels, but
> >their  purpose would be to keep the civilian ships in line.
>  
> Again, unlikely.  If you do that, then civilian ships will armor
> themselves to be "pirate-proof", and pirates will arm themselves with
> bay weapons.

  Not if armour (and combat-proof hull) is so expensive that their profits
disappear.

> In any case it will have little effect on Naval vessels. 
> If bays cost too much, they'll use a cheaper alternative,

  Not if that cheaper alternative is ineffective against their likely
opponents. I find it highly doubtful that the Imperium, the Consulate and
the Confederation could agree to that no ship can be armored and just cheap
weapons can be used:)
  It is quite likely that they reduce the number of ships to make each ship
more efficient.

> or just raise
> taxes to pay the difference.

  But you can use that argument against *all* capers to increase the cost
of naval ships! If we don't agree that more expensive military vessels will
lead to smaller fleets, what are we discussing? :)

  BTW: see my other mgs on How the Imperium Fell: Now the Truth can be told:)

> Remember, the Military is in the business of wasting money.

  Exactly:)

> Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3628
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: yet more Striker...
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 92 14:13:44 MET

> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 92 11:01:57 CST
> From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
> Subject: (3617) yet more Striker...
> 
> Bertil:
>>>>In fact, the M1 Abrams is essentially invulnerable to hand held anti-tank
>>>>weapons.  So is the British Challenger, I am given to understand.

  I'm almost willing to wager that certain ATGM's or other man portable 
weapons (FFV's HEAP Tank-mine for example) can penetrate it if they hit it 
from the side, the rear, the top or the bottom. It it had 200mm armor plate 
all around it would weigh too much for the engine and have too high 
groundpressure.

>>>Yes, and it can be worse in Traveller, since I can arrange things so that
>>>the M-1 equivalent is armored all-around, instead of mostly in the front.
>  
> >  Which will invalidate both the advantages of good tactics (catching
> >the tank from a less protected side) and innovative weapons (that
> >strike the tank in a location where the armor in thin, like roof,
> >bottom or rear).
>  
> It sure will.  So what?
 
  It is bad from the point of view of the game: Tactics is not encouraged,
just a slugfest. The half-armour vs pinpoint is a hack as you can pinpoint
all you like if it as 500mm all around, it will still have 500mm all around.

> Tactics and design theories change as
> technology does.  Fact of Life.

  This isn't an artifact of technology, it is a result of the design system.
If it was possible to vary the thickness of the armour independently for
all faces of the vehicle, almost all designers would optimize the armour
to be thicker than with MegaT on the sides that face the primary danger and
thinner on the other sides: Saving weight, gaining G's and Mw for the
weapon, and reducing cost.
  
> PD weapons must see the rounds for at least 150m (15cm).
> Nuclear Dampers do twice as many dice of interdict as a point defense
> weapon of the same TL.
>  
> >The 'Davy Crocket' nuke bazooka rides again:)
>  
> More likely a nuke-tipped tac-missile, but you have the general idea.

  At 150m I hope they have their lead underwear on. BTW: When I get home
I'll check if any nuclear charge comes down to 4cm diameter at any TL.
Imagine that: A auto-grenade launcher or a gaussrifle that fires nukes:)
  
> And if you design the ultimate armoured vehicle using MT (instead of
> Striker), keep in mind that MT armour has NO VOLUME.  It distorts
> reality slightly, to say the least.

  Yes, its a kludge.
  
> Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3629
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: How the Imperium Fell: Now the Truth can be told (10k)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 92 14:19:06 MET

My second 'more likely than a virus' story:)

[Oops, it got longer than I thought when I started it!]

	  How the Imperium Fell: Now the Truth can be told

  1116, A cold planet in the Swordworlds: Emperor Strephon and The Chairman of
the High Council for the Zhodani Consulate meet in the utmost secrecy at the
request of the Emperor. In 1114 the Consulate had sent a secret delegation to
Capitol/Core to inform the Emperor of the result of a several hundred years
long project of theirs.
  To make a long story short, the Consulate had long ago found an Ancient
artifact in the ruins on Zhdants moon(1). The artifact was a device that
enhanced and focused the innate psionic power of teleporters so that one
person marginally skilled in teleportation could teleport himself with
full equipment and up to five (depending on strength) non-psionic individuals
or warbots over interplanetary distances. Furthermore the device automatically
compensated for differences in vector and potential energy.
  Now the Zhodanis, in a manner similar to when the Imperium copied the
first black globe, had managed to start producing copies of the device.

  The Zhodani delegation to Core informed the Imperium of this up to then
highly secret development and assured that it would be used in the case of
an Imperial attack upon the Consulate or with the consulate allied states.
Their claims were proven in a demonstration where a volunteer Zhodani and
five warbot dummies teleported from a Zho cruiser to a Imperial cruiser
over Jewell while both ships were engaged in heavy maneuvering on 
interplanetary range from eachother.

  The Imperial High Command was terrified. The fact that the Imperial 
defence budget consumed 50% of the Imperial GNP had been hidden by creative
accounting by the IISS and the Department of Finance intentionally giving
too high figures for planetary GNP and the Navy and the Megacorps officially
claiming that the military ships were incredbly cheaper than in reality.
  Originally just a few percent went to military ends, but the several hundred
years long arms-race with the Zhodanis had led to a gradual increase. 
As to not alert the Zhodanis and other enemies that the Imperiums economy 
too weak to sustain this level of spending a policy of forging GNP and Ship
costs begun and while the Zhodani soon penetrated it it still fooled the 
Solomani and other enemies.
  
  Emperor Strephon immediately ordered that a countermeasure be found and
installed on all Imperial warships. A countermeasure already existed: 
Additional psionic shielding installed in all ship, but it was horribly
expensive. The already existant shielding in the ships was one of the
secret posts in the Navy budget that sucked up immense amounts of money
for repairs and maintainance of the frail and experimental electronics.

  Now the economists revealed to Strephon that the Imperial economy simply
couldn't handle the strain of equipping all, or even the most important
ships with this new and even more expensive and difficult-to-maintain 
anti-teleport psionic shielding. It would collapse totally.

  Forced into a corner by the "The Zho's *will* attack us, it is just a
matter of time, and any peace-treaty on their part is a scam, so we *must*
have this new shield" faction in the high Imperial Nobility and Military 
led by Dulinor of Illelish and the economic realities Strephon had no choise
but to start playing his trump cards.

  The first card played was the Darrian Option: A sizeable fraction of the 
Corridor fleet got a transfer order to the Solomani Rim while the similar 
number of ships in the Rim got a transfer order to Corridor. This was 
officially called a 'unit exchange manuever'. In reality it travelled towards
the Darrians but stopped in deep space outside the border. A fleet courier
continued on and delivered a message from Emperor Strephon to the Darrians.

  The message was that unless the Darrians attacked a long list of Zhodani
systems with their 'Maghiz device' a.k.a the Star Trigger, elements of the
Imperial Corridor Fleet would sterilize all Darrian worlds with nuclear, 
chemical and biological weapons. The Darrian response was that unless certain 
coded and outwardly normal messages continued to be transmitted over the 
Imperial Xboat Network from Darrian to certain places in the Imperium,
preplaced Maghiz devices would be triggered on several places in the 
*Imperium*.

  The fleet left.

  The second card was the Ultraviolet Option, an extension of the old Project
Blackheart. Several imperial deep penetration fleet intruders equipped with
non-standard propulsions: Jumpdrives who's sinks could be charged by enormous
deployable solar arrays thus removing the need for travelleing close to
planets would enter the Consulate using their solar-arrays to complement
wilderness refuellings on cometary nucleii in interstellar space and in
surprise attacks bombard the major Zhodani HiPop worlds with nuclear,
biological and chemical weapons.

  Just a few weeks after the five ships had departed a new delegation from
the Consulate arrived at Regina bringing proof that all five ships had been
intercepted and destroyed before even leaving the Spinward Marches sector.

  Their message was that "We expected as much from you untrustworthy Imperials,
but we will overlook it. But try something more and we will crush you."
Strephon had secretly been on Regina to direct first the Darrian option and
then the Ultraviolet option without the time delays, and he now requested
an immediate summit. The location agreed on was the Sworldworlds. Zhodani-
allies but almost in the Imperial sphere of influence.

  Emperor Strephon travelled there to try to cut a deal not too unfavourable
to the Imperium, but at least one person in his entourage viewed this as an
capitulation and spilled the beans. Word about what was happening spread
with a 2Jump6 fleet courier across the Rift to Illelish where Dulinor put 
the plan he had prepared on the off chance that Strephon "chickened out" as
he put it.

  So while Emperor Strephon signed an agreement in which the Imperium 
permanently gave up all claims for any area spinward of the current positions
in the Marches and coreward of Deneb and spinward of the Windhorn rift, 
reduced the size of the fleet with 75% and declared the Spinward Marches as
a demilitarized zone, Archduke Dulinor travelled towards Core to perform
a coup.

  Strephon got wind of the assassination when his ship was attacked in
Corridor and set off for his retreat position to rally his forces. Meanwhile
Dulinors coup had run into trouble. His co-conspirator Lucan who had 
promised to help back Dulinor by preparing incriminating evidence of
Strephons 'treason' in exchange for the position of Archduke of Deneb had
all the while planned to dispose of Varian, rally the Imperial Marine Guards
to crush Dulinor and the Illelish Guards and assume the throne himself. 
So when Dulinors aide came to fetch Lucan and get the datafiles from him Lucan
killed him along with Varian and several others. 
  Dulinor had by the way planned to dispose of Lucan as soon as he had
the evidence he planned to use during his adress to the populace after
seating himslef in the Iridium Throne. When he never got the evidence the
plan fell apart and he had to invent some other justification on the spot for 
assassinating "Strephon". He then left the palace for Illelish to rally his
fleets around himself and deal with that upstart Lucan.

  During the intense civil war that followed both Lucan and Dulinor squeezed
every last quarter credit out of every world they could lay their hands on.
The reason for this was that they needed their money to prepare their 
fleets for the expected Zhodani attack, an attack that never came. When the
Imperium fragmented the Conslate decided that the danger from the Imperium
was gone for the forseable future and sent a messenger to Norris where they
told him that if he'd feel like breaking the agreement  by not implementing
DMZ they would have nothing against it, since they wanted their flank 
protected. But if he ever tried to move against the Consulate...

  The Imperial Economy that had a hard time supporting the enormous military
spendings normally couldn't hope to survive the Civil War when everybody
raised it's percentage of the GNP to 70% or more. It broke down as the 
Imperium fragmented. Lucan was hit the less because while he had 
raised the secret taxes like everybody else except Norris, he had left the
actual economical management to the experts, unlike for example Dulinor that
had tried to control every last credit with disastrous results. The 
production fell and the navies started to cannibalize commercial shipping
when they couldn't afford to repair their hideously expensive ships due
to the depression.

  As the productivity went down, the taxes went up to support the expensive 
navies and as the taxes went up, the productivity went down until vast
areas of the area that had formerly been the Third Imperium lay without
naval protection and outside the routs of the merchant ships.



  (1)This device was in fact the reason for the devastating plague that hit 
Zhdant after their first moon landings: The meeting between moon and Zhdant
chirpers (the latter members of the expedition) activated the plague. During 
it's incubation time it was brought down to Zhdant by humans and chirpers 
testing the device. Even though they knew what the device did the moon-
chirpers lacked the technical skill to energize the device themselves before
the Zhodanis landed.
  When the first chirpers begun to die on the moon it was too late: The plague
had spread to the Zhdant chirper population and soon it targetted the humans
on both Zhdant and the moon. No living thing survived on the moon and on
Zhdant all chirpers and 90% of the humans died.


- -bertil-
- -- 
"No, it isn't stolen. If I had added a part about how Margaret holds a
 speech from a gravtank outside the Moot, *then* it would have been stolen."

"Hmm, perhaps I should post it to alt.conspiracy too?"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3630
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Combat psionics
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 92 10:21:19 GMT

Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil> writes:
> 
> Would you care to suggest a class of infantry weapons that is not currently
> covered by the rules that will threaten a grav tank?

Sure.  Actually, it has already been suggested, although against larger
targets.

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
>
> 2) Psi shielding for ships:
> Well, why not?  It would be of very dubious use in preventing Zho Teleport
> commandos though.  Remember, they have limited range.  Also there is the
> problem that the attacker would still have to match vectors with the defender
> to avoid the teleporters from slamming into the bulkheads of the ship they
> are teleporting on to.

What about psionic attacks against grav vehicles?  If I were a Zhodani with
a good set of psionic skills, I wouldn't want to teleport into a tank.  (Or
a ship, for that matter.)  Even if the problem with different vectors was
solved, I expect there would be a little delay involved as I adjusted to my
new surroundings, and in that time the new surroundings would be adjusting
to me.  This means marines and/or crew adjusting their weapons in a manner
dangerous to my health.  No, I would go for some sort of telekinetic attack.
Try to find some fuses and remove them.  Flip safety switches on weapons.
Alter throttles.  Try to bend, unbend, bend a wire in the hope of snapping
it.

I might also go for the crew.  As well as the obvious trick of crushing
the pilot's trachea, I could also mess with their minds in all sorts of
ways.

The only problem is that if the Imperial forces have any sense at all,
every vehicle from battle-dress size upwards is going to be psionically
shielded if it is expected to see combat against Zhodani.  Or against
anyone else who has a chance of using psionic adepts, for that matter.

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3631
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 92 08:43:59 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: more fleet actions...

Bertil:
 
>  10)STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY: Building an 1MT starship that has to stand
>up to 6G of acceleration and weapon impacts demands very strong
>materials.  I suspect that such materials don't exist today. There is a
>certain maximum size for each combination of material strength and
>structural stress, and this will set the maximum size for all ships.
>Any larger than that they will (in extreme cases) tear themselves apart
>when going at full throttle or crack as an egg shell when hit in
>combat.
>  Civilian ships don't have to handle the same levels of stress as 
>military ships, so they have a larger maximum size (and cost less for
>an equal tonnage). You could say that this is already present in the
>armour rules today, but armour is voluntary while this would be a
>compulsory factor.
 
Actually, I suspect that the top-end composites do have that strength.
And I suspect that if you investigate the design differences between
Naval vessels and merchants (Real World), you will find very little
difference structurally, other than the presence of armour on some Navy
ships.  The primary difference between Navy ships and Civilian ships is
*Damage Control*  Navy ships have large crews of highly trained young
men ready to fix these little problems as they come up.  Civilian ships
don't.
 
I can agree with the idea that a stronger ship should have some internal
volume expended, as well as mass.  Notice that old High Guard did so. 
Notice that MT hull armour has infinite density (NO VOLUME).
 
I can accept the addition of interior components for structural
strength.  I doubt it will have much effect on MT warships:  Notice that
not one of the battleships in "shattered ships" pulls more than 3Gs. 
High acceleration is not really necessary for a warship, so your change
will not SIGNIFICANTLY alter the picture (too many warships).
BTW, in our campaign, the defined function of thrusters is such that
ther problem your solution deals with isn't there.  
 
 
>> That is not why military equipment costs so much.  It has more to do
>> with short production runs and high research costs.
 
>  When working in a place where all chips we used could stand severe 
>temperature changes :) I came upon a little analogue chip called the
>4741 which contained 4 741 operational amplifyers. If you buy the
>civilian version I'd expect it to cost less than 10 cents, but the
>little 4741 in a cheramic capsule and all costs around $8.
>
>  The big question is: Is there a difference in MTBF (Mean Time Between
>Failures) between military and civilian starships?
 
And when I was in the Navy, I ran into milspec SCRs that cost $75, when
the civilian version cost $1.90 in Radio Shack.  So?
 
  
>> Actually, we see few supertankers with 10 127mm naval guns because it
>is
>> against the law in most countries to put weapons like that on
>privately
>> owned ships.  Note that in WW2,we DID see merchants mounting heavy
>guns.
>
>  Yes, but never as many guns and of as big calibre as a warship of
>equal tonnage. There is today a Russian fleet replenishment ship that
>is armed with a small number (3 I think) of naval medium calibre guns,
>but going from it's tonnage we'd expect it to be much more heavily
>armed: Two SAM systems, one SSM system, ASW mortars, torpedo tubes,
>CIWS and so on.
 
This is not a question of legality, or of hull reinforcement.  This is
because (in the Real World), weapon systems are LARGE.  They take up a
significant fraction of a ship's carrying capacity.  A single 16" turret
from the New Jersey masses 1400 tons.  Missile magazines take up large
fractions of a hull's volume.
MT (and Traveller before it) assume that weapon mass/volume are trivial,
and that the main effect of a weapon on a ship was increased cost.  This
is not how the universe works (so far, at least).  Changes in technology
could change that.
 
 
>  It will encourage naval ships to mount bays instead of turrets, since
>each turret battery consists of many turrets (many FC's) while a bay is
>one large turret (one FC). It would also encourage civilian ships 
>(who can't afford the expensive bays) to keep the number of turrets
>down.
 
Which expensive bays are those?  A 50t missile bay costs MCr12.  Ten
missile turrets cost MCr22.5.  SO you'll force merchants to mount BETTER
weapons (?) for less money.
There isn't any 50t bay which costs more than the equivalent turret
battery.  Most cost A LOT less.
 
 
>> Again, unlikely.  If you do that, then civilian ships will armor
>> themselves to be "pirate-proof", and pirates will arm themselves with
>> bay weapons.
>
>  Not if armour (and combat-proof hull) is so expensive that their
>profits disappear.
 
If a pirate gets them, their profits disappear too.  It's cheaper to
make a ship that can survive an attack than not, if attacks are at all
common.
The condition you describe would NOT reduce the number of warships.  It
would raise the demand for protection of merchant traffic, and teh Navy
would get a bigger budget to build MORE ships, which would be even more
obtrusive than before. 
If you want to cut the number of warships, try eliminating piracy as a
consideration.
 
 
>> In any case it will have little effect on Naval vessels. 
>> If bays cost too much, they'll use a cheaper alternative,
>
>  Not if that cheaper alternative is ineffective against their likely
>opponents. I find it highly doubtful that the Imperium, the Consulate
>and the Confederation could agree to that no ship can be armored and
>just cheap weapons can be used:)
>  It is quite likely that they reduce the number of ships to make each
>ship more efficient.
 
A nuclear missile is pretty effective against anyone, even if fired from
a turret.  If the alternatives to nuclear missiles are prohibitively
expensive, then nuclear missiles will be used.
 
 
>  But you can use that argument against *all* capers to increase the
>cost of naval ships! If we don't agree that more expensive military
>vessels will lead to smaller fleets, what are we discussing? :)
 
I hope we are discussing ways of removing those nuisance warships from
the scene.  I don't agree that raising the price per will have a
significant effect on the problem.  If you need an aircraft carrier for
national defense, then you'll build one.  The cost doesn't matter. 
Notice that the size of the US Navy has not changed significantly in 40
years.  The ships keep getting more expensive, but we keep on building
new ones to replace the old ones.  We just steal the extra from the
taxpayers, as governments have done throughout history.
 
If you want to cut the number of Naval ships, look for justifications
for fewer ships that DO NOT INCLUDE PRICE!  GOVERNMENTS HAVE AN
UNLIMITED BUDGET, if they so desire.  They print the money, after all. 
They will ALWAYS have as much as they need.
 
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3632
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 92 09:15:09 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: more striker still...

Bertil:
 
>>>>In fact, the M1 Abrams is essentially invulnerable to hand held
anti-tank
>>>>weapons.  So is the British Challenger, I am given to understand.
 
>  I'm almost willing to wager that certain ATGM's or other man portable
>weapons (FFV's HEAP Tank-mine for example) can penetrate it if they hit
>it from the side, the rear, the top or the bottom. It it had 200mm
>armor plate all around it would weigh too much for the engine and have
>too high groundpressure.
 
So would I.  The improved TOW was specifically designed to deal with a
tank armoured at that level.
However, the latest version of the M1 (not yet in full production, last
I heard (last year)) uses depleted Uranium inserts in it's composite
armour.  Supposed to be proof against most kinetic kill weapons, and all
HEAT rounds presently in the field.  Note that this restriction applies
to frontal armour, and part of the side armour.
 
 
>>>>Yes, and it can be worse in Traveller, since I can arrange things so
that
>>>>the M-1 equivalent is armored all-around, instead of mostly in the
front.
>>  
>> >  Which will invalidate both the advantages of good tactics
(catching
>> >the tank from a less protected side) and innovative weapons (that
>> >strike the tank in a location where the armor in thin, like roof,
>> >bottom or rear).
>  
>> It sure will.  So what?
 
>  It is bad from the point of view of the game: Tactics is not
>encouraged, just a slugfest. The half-armour vs pinpoint is a hack as
>you can pinpoint all you like if it as 500mm all around, it will still
>have 500mm all around.
 
As I said earlier, even with 500mm armour all around, some things HAVE
to be exposed.  If the muzzle of your weapon were under armour, it would
not be functional.  Likewise sensors.  If your sensors can penetrate
armour, then a weapon could be built to use that frequency lasered, and
ruin you.
 
>> Tactics and design theories change as
>> technology does.  Fact of Life.
>
>  This isn't an artifact of technology, it is a result of the design
>system.  If it was possible to vary the thickness of the armour
>independently for all faces of the vehicle, almost all designers would
>optimize the armour to be thicker than with MegaT on the sides that
>face the primary danger and thinner on the other sides: Saving weight,
>gaining G's and Mw for the weapon, and reducing cost.
  
No, your opinion is an artifact of your prejudices.  As any fighter
pilot will tell you, a plane has no side which faces the "primary
danger".  Grav tanks fly, usually quickly.  They are exposed to starship
fire from orbit.  THERE IS NO FACE WHICH CAN BE POINTED TO AS THE
PRIMARY THREAT ZONE!  An attack may come from any direction, or even all
at once.  If the Grav tank can't survive hits to the belly (from ground
fire in flight), or hits to the roof(from orbital bombardment or grav
tanks at higher altitude), or hits to any side (during dogfights), then
it is worthless as a weapon system.
 
>> PD weapons must see the rounds for at least 150m (15cm).
>> Nuclear Dampers do twice as many dice of interdict as a point defense
>> weapon of the same TL.
>>  
>> >The 'Davy Crocket' nuke bazooka rides again:)
>>  
>> More likely a nuke-tipped tac-missile, but you have the general idea.
>
>  At 150m I hope they have their lead underwear on. BTW: When I get
>home I'll check if any nuclear charge comes down to 4cm diameter at any
>TL.  Imagine that: A auto-grenade launcher or a gaussrifle that fires
>nukes:)
 
They do not have to be within 150m, just to see the shell travel that
far.  The smallest Nuke in standard Striker is 8cm (100T, TL15)
 
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

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Subject: TML Bundle #295: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3633  31-Jan-92 PCD               Defending Hard Times TL Drop << First a gener
3634  31-Jan-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au The Tech Level of Fuel Cells in Traveller << 
3635  01-Feb-92 Pauli             Re: Naval vessels << Hans Rancke-Madsen write
3636  31-Jan-92 Adrian Hurt       Various combat stuff << d9bertil@dtek.chalmer
3637  31-Jan-92 Cynthia_Higginbot PBEM << 1) Did everyone who asked about joini
3638  01-Feb-92 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Rise and Fall of the 3rd Imperium |-> << Rise
3639  01-Feb-92 A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.S starship sizes << As to the person who basica
3640  01-Feb-92 Steve_Higginbotha physics and others... << Bertil: > Purchase p
3641  01-Feb-92 Steve_Higginbotha more economics of Hard Times... << Adrian Hur

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3633
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 92 13:40:08 EST
From: PCD <duggan@siam.org>
Subject: Defending Hard Times TL Drop



First a  general question: is "Traveler 3" something that's actually
in the works?

Steve Higginbotham writes:

>came out, as MT made it MUCH harder to build a ship which could have a
>real chance of being an effective pirate)

Actually, I've always wondered who it was that would construct (and finance)
such specialty ships as the pirate corsair: or do governments give them away
to privateers (legal pirates).

Also, there is absolutely no provision for how a scientist is supposed
to meet the operating expenses and payments for his or her Lab Ship.

> It takes more than an army and navy to be a superpower.  Standard of
> living might be nice, too.  ANd they STILL have all those things, as you
> say.   USSR 70+ years and counting / Imperium dead after 5- years???

The USSR lived for its 70 years largely off of the capital it had to
begin with. Once that basicly ran out, (and assorted other problems)
the decline we see now has come pretty quickly. The death of the imperium
starts in 1116, so its actually more like 10 years.


> And I am sure that the number of people who will be willing to move away
> from their homeworlds are not appreciably greater than the number of
> people today who leave their home countries to seek better
> opportunities.  Some do, for sure, but if they all did, then Germany
> would have been depopulated after WW2.  VERY few people can pull up
> their roots and walk away from everything they've ever known for the
> CHANCE of better times elsewhere.  Most will stay and work for better
> times here.

We're dealing with a colonial situation in most cases. Which lends
credence to the one-product mentality. Witness how well colonies
did after the British decided to pack it in, leaving them
with one resource. Now if nobody can ship that one resource...

If the imperial structure is retreating (voluntarily, as in the case of the 
vilani megacorps, or involuntarily, as piracy and mayhem increase), I would
think that the best and brightest (and wealthiest) would hightail it to
where their skills could be better rewarded. Of course not all, but more
in tough times.

 
> of your speeder plummet!).  I doubt that wheeled vehicles would be
> competitive.  Especially given the detail everyone else (GDW included)
> seems to overlook.  NO ROADS!   The wheeled vehicle economy will never
> work without roads for them to drive on (yes, four wheel drive offroad
> vehicles exist - have you ever seen a four-wheel drive off-road
> 18wheeler?)  The roads would cost FAR more (look at how much the USA
> spends on them) than the grav vehicle factory ever could.

I find it hard to accept the non-presence of roads, mostly because
I don't see grav-vehicles totally replacing road transport 
except at maybe the highest tech levels. Look at the world today: sure we
have lots of cars, but in china the auto is a rarity, and most folks
travel by low tech bicycles. The market for bikes in the CIS is
expanding, according to recent news. You could keep the grav-vehicle
factory running, but they won't be as affordable.
 
One should keep in mind, of course, that grav texhnology is not the
only high technology, and that while maybe that one perhaps will
not be readily converted down, other might be more likely. 
Also, if these plants ARE so hi-tech, I'm sure they wouln't have as
much difficulty retooling, as hitech robots and computers and so
on are most likely MORE versatile (until they wear out, of course).


>>But our navy isn't undergoing a major financial crunch, and facing
>>a major military threat at the moment. Hard times would be a feedback
>>loop: the markets go down, the technology skips a beat, causing more
>>financial instability and so on.
> 
> Neither are most of theirs.  And why didn't this happen in the
> Depression, if it so likely?

Because the depression was fiddlesticks compared to hard times.
Everything is magnified: a bigger economy, more inflated (which seems to
be an assumption of the problems leading up to the rebellion, that
the imperium was already running on inertia maybe for the past 100
years (the 1000 year empire at 1100) as was the rule of man before
the long Night.) There is a bigger war, with worse effects, and so on.
I mean three major megacorporations just up and LEFT most of the imperium.
Sure they'll sell their assets (some), but who can afford to buy them
as they watch their plastic credits become valueless.
Imagine if AT&T, IBM, and general motors all go out of business
at the same time (or say that they are giving up on america to
move to europe, because of some bizzare ideological faith in restoring
the Roman Empire :-)) Most of their employees decide to go with them,
and they pack up a considerable amount of their capital assets
(well, maybe AT&T is bad conceptual example).


> Check out World Builder's Handbook for guidelines on who has the
> High-Tech.  In most TL15 worlds, most people would be living at TL14 (or
> perhaps TL13).  Which is still a whole lot higher than TL10!  Even if
> 90% of it evaporated overnight, they probably could rebuild all of it in
> 5 years.

In the collapse, though, the disparities would become much more
pronounced. Drop tech by one, say, overall, and the magnification
of this drop pulls the middle class level quite possibly down to 10.
(especially if the anti-grav cities (TL14) crash:-) Maybe there's
no computer virus but how bout a superconductor virus per Niven :-))


> And why should you stop being wealthy because the Stock Market crashed?
> As Sam Walton said after losing $500,000,000 in the Stock Market
> collapse a few years ago, "it was paper yesterday, it's still paper
> today."

Not just the Stock Market crashed, the MARKET crashed. That is, the
imperial credit (no doubt inflated anyway) is worthless, so all the
assets measure in it are worthless. I don't know how Hard Times deals
with the imperial monetary system, but if it doesn't foresee its failure,
then I'd have to agree it's a bit whacked.

This brings up a problem I've always had with the kind of interstellar
market and finance conceived of in traveller, in that I find it hard to
believe it exists, when it takes at least two weeks to find out
what's going on the next planet over. But I'm using the assumption in
all of theses discussions. Does anyone have any ideas about
how interstellar fiances could really work?


> If you own a factory, it won't evaporate just because the Stock Market
> does.  If you have a factory, and no cash, BARTER!  Your people will
> work for room and board if times are that bad, and you can provide them
> by trading the products of your factories for the products of other
> people's factories.

Aside from barter being extremely inefficient,
are we assuming that every TL15 world has a grav vehicle factory?
Does every one have a mini-fusion plant factory? does every one
have an anagathics lab? a consumer electronics plant? While the level
of specialization might not be on the "left-handed egg spoon" level
it's still going to be pretty high, I'd guess. Factoring in the amount
of comparative advantage various world-types and government types,
and bizzare cultural factors might produce. ("We selflessly sacrifice
our children for the good of the grav vehicle electrostatic
rain zapping field plant" :-))


> And as I said on a post this past AM, we (Cynthia and I) expect to see a
> LOT of Htlers and Stalins and Roosevelt in the next few years of the
> Imperium.

Right on. (And thanks for including Roosevelt in there :-)) But ultimately
a Stalinist type recovery isn't going to produce long term-growth,
and the imperium's already been running on a flawed base.

Hitler just might very well get everyone making ground cars again.
He was opposed to the International style of architecture (a technical
advance) for ideological reasons. Maybe the scapegoats will be the technology
brought by those evil imperial traders 400 odd years ago (makes as much
sense as blaming Jews for killing somebody 2000 years ago). Another
potentail scapegoat: "those vilani who didn't take off, who are still
running the factories we think we need so much".


> And if it were common, then the lads left behind would just know how to
> do one thing, which WILL NOT BE how to build wheeled vehicles!  They are
> far more likely to have cookbook knowledge of Grav engineering than of
> wheeled vehicle design (which they haven't used in 11,000 years).

You're right of course. But my main problem with this is that the grav
vehicles will be unaffordable to the average person who formerly
could afford them. Poverty is expensive, and the chaos will not just
drive down income, but drive up prices.

> The five Tl drop is ludicrous. The assumption that such a drop would
> last for more than a VERY short period is even more ludicrous.
> HOWEVER, the MOST LUDICROUS THING TRAVELLER (in any incarnation) HAS
> EVER DONE IS TO ASSUME THAT "PEASANTS" WILL BE COMMON IN THE
> IMPERIUM!!!!!!!!

I see alot of justification for your objections to the extreme
tech drop, and I think I agree that it wouldn't be very long lasting,
and maybe not as extreme.
It would take a while to occur, though, but I don't see it as only taking
the five years of hard times.

I disagree very much about the presence of peasants, remembering that
peasant is a relative term. (even not remembering that: in our own
world, the most populous nation i think could still be described as
having a great number of "peasants".) But peasant is relative to the
level of the middle class. Sure you and I have computers, nice cars,
central heating, etc, but there are people in america with only radios,
or outhouses, or have no electricity. They weren't that "common" anyway,
only appearing on a 2 in 36 chance if not mistaken.


paul duggan


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3634
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1992 12:56 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: The Tech Level of Fuel Cells in Traveller

Guten tag miene herren,

Jurgen raised a point on the tech level of fuel cells.  According to the errata
in the design flow charts, the fuel cells that they use are first available at
Tech Level 10.

Well, I find that fairly reasonable.  The ones they have are quite efficient.
BUT, I must point out that we have had working fuel cells since TL 6!  The
U.S. Mercury project, which placed a man in orbit in the 
1960's used (I believe) fuel cells for power.  Therefore, I have allowed the
use of fuel cells in TL 6 space vehicles.

But I would not go ahead and use them in other TL 6 vehicles.  They are not
a very good approximation of how much a TL 6 fuel cell would cost or perform.
But we have nothing else in the books to replace it.  If you do not feel that
is appropriate, I suggest you double the cost weight and volume of them.  But
personally I would not do so.

Scott Kellogg
Seine English ist besser vie meine Deutsche

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3635
Subject: Re: Naval vessels
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 92 11:35:59 +1100
From: Pauli <grue@cs.uq.oz.au>

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:

>>Nonetheless, this is MT's picture.  Try FFW (Fifth Frontier War)
>>sometime.  Imperial ships DON'T fight that far from their bases.

>Except when GDW conviniently forgets that and lets Terran Confederation
>fleets penetrate to Vland and Aslan ihatei attack Aki. Naval ships don't
>_like_ to fight far from a base  -  who would  -  but it's not unreasonable
>to suppose that the various admiralties would plan for it.

Why not bring you base along with you?  It wouldn't be too hard to design
a large hull with a jump drive and lots of storage space.

As a first attempt how is the following:


CraftID: Fleet Tender, Type TF  TL=F (High Stellar), MCr213018
Hull:     900000/2250000, Disp=1000000, Config=7US, Armour=40G,
	  Unloaded=3001570, Loaded=3296788 (fuel only)
Power:    8667/17334, Fusion=2340000Mw, Duration=30/90
Loco:     18000/36000, Maneuver=1 (anti-grav), 45000/90000, Jump=4,
	  NOE=190, Cruise=900, Top=1200kph (vacuum only),
	  Agility=0
Commo:    Meson=System(x3), Radio=System(x3), Maser=System(x3)
Sensors:  PassiveEMS=Interstellar(x3), ActiveEMS=Far Orbit(x3),
	  Neutrino=10kw(x3), Densitometer=HighPen/1km(x3)
	  ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
	  PasObjScan=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine,
	  PasEngScan=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
Def:      DefDM=7
Control:  Computer=9x3, Panel=Holographic Linked(x140000),
	  Special=Large Holodisplay(x3), Heads-up Holodisplay(x300)
	  Environ=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates, inertial comp
Accom:    Crew=822, Staterooms=425 (doubles)
Other:    Cargo=7872200kL, Fuel=842400kL (power plant)  3375000kL (jump drive),
	  ObjSize=Large, EmLevel=Strong

The ship is capable of carrying a 500000 Ton ship as cargo when the carge hold
is close to empty.  However during normal operations, a ship such as this
will carry replacement parts and tools necessary for the maintainence and minor
repairs of combat ships.

Anybody care to suggest how many tons of ship this tender would be able to
field supply?  My personal feel is not much (2 Megatons or less).  This
type of ship would be a nice juicy target in combat since without it the
entire dependent fleet is going to have troubles.

This doesn't solve the problem of where to maintain the tender.  Maybe they
could be sent forward and then effectively left in a know location never to
move again (well not quite never but not for a while).  It could exist as
a mobile supply centre of sorts.





        						Pauli

Paul Dale               | Internet/CSnet:            grue@cs.uq.oz.au
Dept of Computer Science| Bitnet:       grue%cs.uq.oz.au@uunet.uu.net
Uni of Queensland       | JANET:           grue%cs.uq.oz.au@uk.ac.ukc
Australia, 4072         | EAN:                          grue@cs.uq.oz
                        | UUCP:           uunet!munnari!cs.uq.oz!grue
f4e6g4Qh4++             | JUNET:                     grue@cs.uq.oz.au

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3636
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Various combat stuff
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 92 18:56:45 GMT

d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se writes:
> 
> > A better way is to consider the price of missiles.  At Cr50000 each, a bay
> > shoots off MCr1.25 with each volley.
> 
>   This would affect the PC's capability of popping off missiles like pop-corn
> too so it has it's disadvantages.

Preventing PC's from having (and using) the firepower to wipe out a fleet
is a disadvantage?  :-)

Besides, now you know why, whenever I played in a campaign with space combat,
I used lasers when possible and kept missiles for "special occasions".

He also writes:

>   So the infantry could use recoilless rifles with nuclear rounds to take out
> almost any target no matter how hard it is.

If they don't mind ending up with a radioactive desert.  If they're defending
their homeland, they might want to be careful; if they're attacking, they may
be under orders not to do too much damage, because they're supposed to be
capturing the place, not destroying it; and if they are supposed to be
destroying it, a few large nuclear missiles will do a better job anyway.

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham) writes:
> >           (This is BTW the reason why we don't see any supertankers
> >mounting 10 127mm naval guns today).
>  
> Actually, we see few supertankers with 10 127mm naval guns because it is
> against the law in most countries to put weapons like that on privately
> owned ships.  Note that in WW2,we DID see merchants mounting heavy guns.

The reason you don't see merchants mounting many heavy guns, even during
a war, is that they are merchant ships.  Their job is to transport stuff.
Ammunition for big guns takes up space.  Now, if the ship's main job is
fighting, then it gets big guns, and lots of them.  In WW2, we did see
merchant ships mounting heavy guns - one per ship, usually.  We also saw
ex-merchant ships with the armament of cruisers.  They were called
auxiliary cruisers, and their job was either to do commerce raiding, or
to make life harder for the other side's commerce raiders.  And German
supply ships tended to have a good few guns as well, although they were
tankers whose main job was to supply the real raiders - the auxiliary
cruisers and the "pocket battleships".

Now, in Traveller, lasers don't take any ammo.  Their hardpoints do take
up space, but even so, if I were running a large freighter I'd want to
get a good load of lasers if there was a serious risk of piracy.  For
a historical precedent, there is always the Dutch East India merchant
ships, which were as well armed as many warships.

RWALLACE@vax1.tcd.ie writes:
> Subject: (3616) High-tech infantry
> 
>							Once you get to the
> stage where a fusion gun can be made man-portable (the Traveller "FGMP-16"
> is based on this idea, though the effect is greatly understated), then as
> far as I can see, armored vehicles become redundant because a fusion gun
> is basically a straight-line hydrogen bomb; you could blow away an Iowa-
> class battleship with one like a china plate in a shooting gallery, never
> mind a tank.

Well, FGMP's aren't quite that powerful.  And anyway, with the higher TL
armour, the tank is probably better armoured than the Iowa.  If the
infantry's FGMP can destroy a tank, the tank makers just build a bigger
one which the FGMP cannot destroy.

What might change the whole nature of warfare is small meson guns, as
someone else pointed out.  Armour is not much use against them, and
a tank is therefore no better protected than an air/raft.  So then
someone figures out how to make small meson screens, and then the
ground war becomes the same as space war, except smaller.  (Didn't
Book 4, Mercenary, say something about high tech grav tanks being
almost indistinguishable from spacecraft?)

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3637
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 92 17:55:42 CST
From: Cynthia_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Cynthia Higginbotham)
Subject: PBEM

  1) Did everyone who asked about joining get a copy of the "CAMPAIGN
GUIDELINES"?   I thought I sent them off to everyone who inquired, please
let me know if yours didn't get there.

  2) Game-time:real-time rate is going to be 7:1, not 14:1 as originally
stated.


- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

cynthia_higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3638
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1992 15:42 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Rise and Fall of the 3rd Imperium |->

Rise and Fall of the Imperium

Back in the early days of the Imperium, circa 1102, Starship construction was
very simple.  All one needed to know to build a starship was held in a small
collection of engineering notes known as Book 2.  Only light, unarmored ships
with turret weapons were available.  Drives and hulls were standardized.
Interstellar trading was on a small scale, but the people were happy protected
by their Interstellar navy of 1200 ton cruisers.

Then the Fifth Frontier War came.  Suddenly, the Navy obtained new rules for
the construction of ships.  These new notes for Highly massive ships to Guard
the Imperium were known cryptically as Book 5.  The war grew huge in scale.
Cruisers swelled to a hundred times their previous size!  Dreadnoughts became
massive structures!  New weapons were introduced!

But, fortunately, the Navy did not keep it's new construction capabilities to
itself.  It allowed merchant companies to build ships according to their new
specifcations.  Thus, while the Navy budget soared, Interstellar trade
blossomed because of the newer, larger more efficient ships.

All went well for a few years until a Hiver named 'Miller' unleashed a horrible
manipulation on the Imperium.  This manipulation was known as MegaPlot.

MegaPlot had subtlety.  It allowed for Starships to be constructed with
abilities not previously dreamed of by the Book 5 manuals.  Mysterious things
like Disintigrator spinal mounts, Antimatter power plants, Jump drive weapons,
More efficient jump drives all suddenly were available!  Naval Architects were
overwhelmed with their new toys!  They grabbed up MegaPlot and began
experimenting.

Then Miller's manipulation began to have it's effects.  The naval architects
soon realized that MegaPlot only allowed those new toys at Tech levels that
were currently unavailable.  And the performance of designs that could be made
was far inferior to the older Book 5 designs.

But alas, Book 5 ships were now considered obsolete.  Parts were no longer
available.  The ships soon disappeared from the space lanes, replaced by ships
that were all inferior to their predecessors.

However, not all had bought into MegaPlot!  The Zhodani, Droyne, K'Kree and
Hivers saw it for what it was and stayed away.  They were never incorporated
into MegaPlot.  But the Imperials, Vilani, Solomani, Vargr and Aslan were
all trapped.

Dullinor, in great anger that the MegaPlot had been accepted, (and because
MegaPlot made scant mention of him) blamed Strephon and assasinated him.  In
the ensueing rebellion, very few of the MegaPlot designed ships were
destroyed.  This was because all of the MegaPlot ship's sensors could not
detect their enemies at the ranges specified in the MegaPlot manuals.
Another factor was that the ships had so much armor, they were nearly
invulnerable to even the best weapons fielded by the ships.

In the end, the MegaPlot ships all broke down when it was discovered that they
had broken the law of conservation of energy.  They were removed from the
scene never to be seen again.

With all their fleets out of commission, the factions of the rebellion got
desparate.  And it was just such a desparate move that caused the final fall.
One faction went prowling around in archane ship yards, and managed to send
off a fleet to oppose Lucan.  When it reached Capital, all the defenders were
rendered totally helpless.  When he learned of the fleet, Lucan himself was
so shocked that he died of a heart attack brought on by helpless mirth.

The attacking fleet was built by Book 2 methods.

The fleet went to the strongholds of all the factions with similar results.
The fleet itself perished after the crews could no longer contain themselves
and themselves died of laughter.

Thus intersteller trade came to a halt, and the Imperium collapsed.  Those
that survived, are praying that Traveller: The New Era will not bring about
further manipulations by Miller and the malevolent Hivers.  :-)

Scott Kellogg
Well *I* like it better than the virus!
And it's more believable than Hard Times!
The sad thing is it's pretty damn close to the truth...

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3639
Date:    Sat, 1 Feb 1992 18:57:43 -0600 (CST)
From: A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope)
Subject: starship sizes

As to the person who basically said to toss the problem of paying for a fleet
by the government printing more money to use to pay for it -- SAY WHAT????
By the time you've paid for that grand fleet, you will have devalued the
credit so badly and caused such economic ruin that you'll wish you HAD been
invaded. Something like this is A Very Bad Idea.

Regarding starship sizes, the campaigns I have run all deal with a universe
about 500 years after the fall of the Third Imperium. Every planet that had
had a class A or B starport, that was TL9+, or had valuable resources, was
pretty well ruined with (nuclear) bombardment, literally blowing them back
into the stone age. With these worlds losing 90% of the population, and
the industry destroyed, they were effectively out for the count. And the other
worlds didn't have the technological base to build starships. Yes, when I had
I war, I had a WAR. None of this namby-pamby raiding -- total warfare, not
just amongst factions in the Imperium, but involving all the other races.

To the point: there is no capability to build 20,000 ton merchants. The largest
military ship (of which two of its class exist) is just over 5500 tons. Bulk
freighters range from 500-1000 tons. The old 400 ton patrol cruiser is once
again important. The 400 ton corsair now isn't worried about being put in the
trophy bay of a 30,000 ton light freighter. A large number of small ships works
better than a few large. It also means that 200 ton traders aren't shuttles for
50,000 ton vessels. The 'bigger is better' attitude GDW got when going from
basic Traveller to Book 5: High Guard to MegaTraveller is a bad one.



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3640
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 92 22:06:16 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: physics and others...

Bertil:
 
>  Purchase price? I didn't think the purchase price had to be payed at
>all, just the 10% of purchase price cost which pays the purchase (but
>spread out during several years) and maintainance. So you should
>compare the salary to 10% of the purchase price and not 100% of it.
>This would make the fleed shrink by 10 to 30% for TL15 and more at
>lower TL's where larger crews are needed.
 
No.  In the campaign game, your STARTING fleet is indeed bought in that
fashion.  All ships acquired during the course of the game must be payed
for normally, and maintained by expenditure of 1/10 it's cost per year.
 
 
Russell Wallace:
 
>However, while armor not made of atomic matter is theoretically
>impossible,
 
It is?  I have read things suggesting that that is not necessarily so. 
Has neutronium ceased to exist?  It is, after all, non-atomic matter. 
There have been speculations that it is theoretically possible to build
a pseudo-atom with protons in orbit around negatively charged hadrons or
leptons (I forget which, its been a long time since I saw the article). 
Such an idea is certainly way out in left field, but stranger things
have come to pass.
 
>I assume is some sort of theoretically *impossible* armor, which can
>withstand any man-portable conventional weapon; but if this is what is
>causing your problem, why not simply remove it and improve the realism
>while you're at it?
 
No, it's probably more like degenerate matter, but not so extreme.  Or
do you disbelieve in degenerate matter too?
 
 
Scott:
 
>I always thought that the 10* rule to reach low planetary orbit was
>kinda dumb.
>
>After all, any vehicle that is capable of reaching orbit is going to
>have to have a thrust to weight ratio of greater than one anyway. 
>Therefore, the aircraft could effectively go verticle and climb out as
>a normal rocket!
>
>You take off normally from a runway, and after you've climbed a few
>hundred feet, pull the nose up.  WAY up.  If you've got the engines,
>you don't NEED lift!
 
I think you have hit on the crux of the matter here.  I agree
completely.
 
 
>The U.S. Mercury project, which placed a man in orbit in the 
>1960's used (I believe) fuel cells for power.  Therefore, I have
>allowed the use of fuel cells in TL 6 space vehicles.
 
I don't think so.   The Gemini definitely did just a couple of years
later.  I have a model on my desk clearly showing the fuel cells.
 
 
Adrian Hurt:
 
>If they don't mind ending up with a radioactive desert.  If they're
>defending their homeland, they might want to be careful; if they're
>attacking, they may be under orders not to do too much damage, because
>they're supposed to be capturing the place, not destroying it; and if
>they are supposed to be destroying it, a few large nuclear missiles
>will do a better job anyway.
 
Well, nuclear dampers can be used to kill the radiation left by nuclear
attack.  SO the desert wouldn't be radioactive.  Just a desert.
 
 
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3641
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 92 22:11:22 CST
From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
Subject: more economics of Hard Times...

Adrian Hurt:
 
>Make that East Germany, and then guess why the Berlin Wall went up.  In
>1989, the people of East Germany finally figured out, in large numbers,
>how to get out without crossing the Wall.  I'd say that it was more
>than "VERY few people" that did indeed pull up their roots and head for
>the West for the chance of better times.
 
Actually, most of those people left germany to go to Germany.  They did
not leave their homeland to live among strangers, but rather moved
across the street to live among kinfolk.   A better example is Germany
after WW1, when the economy collapsed much more thoroughly than the East
German economy did: very few people left, they just rebuilt on the
ruins.
 
 
Duggan:
 
>Actually, I've always wondered who it was that would construct (and
>finance) such specialty ships as the pirate corsair: or do governments
>give them away to privateers (legal pirates).
 
So have I...
 
 
>Also, there is absolutely no provision for how a scientist is supposed
>to meet the operating expenses and payments for his or her Lab Ship.
 
Or a noble his yacht, a hunter his safari ship, etc.
 
 
>The USSR lived for its 70 years largely off of the capital it had to
>begin with. Once that basicly ran out, (and assorted other problems)
>the decline we see now has come pretty quickly. The death of the
>imperium starts in 1116, so its actually more like 10 years.
 
Well, no.  Most of those factories that the Germans failed to destroy in
WW2 were built during the Soviet era, not previously.   The Soviet Union
collapsed from the strain of trying to maintain the largest military
establishment in the world with the third or fourth largest economy.
 
 
>We're dealing with a colonial situation in most cases. Which lends
>credence to the one-product mentality. Witness how well colonies
>did after the British decided to pack it in, leaving them
>with one resource. Now if nobody can ship that one resource...
 
Well, no, again.  Most of those Imperial worlds have been settled for
5000+ years.  Even the Spinward Marches has been settled for 700+
years.  Not very colonial anymore.
 
 
>I find it hard to accept the non-presence of roads, mostly because
>I don't see grav-vehicles totally replacing road transport 
>except at maybe the highest tech levels. Look at the world today: sure
>we have lots of cars, but in china the auto is a rarity, and most folks
>travel by low tech bicycles. The market for bikes in the CIS is
>expanding, according to recent news. You could keep the grav-vehicle
>factory running, but they won't be as affordable.
 
But notice that we have had cars for about 100 years, and they have
replaced all older forms of personal transport in the USA for any
commercial use.  The Imperium has had grav technology for 10,000 YEARS. 
And why shouldn't grav vehicles be as affordable?  And if they are not,
why assume that wheeled vehicles are MORE affordable?
 
>One should keep in mind, of course, that grav texhnology is not the
>only high technology, and that while maybe that one perhaps will
>not be readily converted down, other might be more likely. 
>Also, if these plants ARE so hi-tech, I'm sure they wouln't have as
>much difficulty retooling, as hitech robots and computers and so
>on are most likely MORE versatile (until they wear out, of course).
 
If your industry is that good, why BOTHER retooling?  And if you do
retool, why retool to produce archaic equipment?  Why not retool to
produce more modern equipment?
 
 
>Because the depression was fiddlesticks compared to hard times.
>Everything is magnified: a bigger economy, more inflated (which seems
>to be an assumption of the problems leading up to the rebellion, that
>the imperium was already running on inertia maybe for the past 100
>years (the 1000 year empire at 1100) as was the rule of man before
>the long Night.) There is a bigger war, with worse effects, and so on.
 
It was?  How about Germany in the 1930's?  And the number of members of
an economy does NOT determine the severity of the collapse.  The number
of members only affects the number of people affected.
And why do you believe the Imperium was running on inertia for the last
100 years?  Published material shows that the Imperium has made more
technological progress in the last 100 years than in the 500 before that
(up two TLs (15 & 16) as opposed to one (14)).
 
 
>I mean three major megacorporations just up and LEFT most of the
>imperium.
>Sure they'll sell their assets (some), but who can afford to buy them
>as they watch their plastic credits become valueless.
>Imagine if AT&T, IBM, and general motors all go out of business
>at the same time (or say that they are giving up on america to
>move to europe, because of some bizzare ideological faith in restoring
>the Roman Empire :-)) Most of their employees decide to go with them,
>and they pack up a considerable amount of their capital assets
>(well, maybe AT&T is bad conceptual example).
 
You overlook the detail that when the Megacorporations packed up, they
DID NOT take their assets with them.  They traded assets around with
Megacorps that were not moving.  The factories were all still in place
afterwards, so who cares who they list as the owner?  
 
And if "plastic credits" become valueless, then there is always
"nationalization".
 
 
>In the collapse, though, the disparities would become much more
>pronounced. Drop tech by one, say, overall, and the magnification
>of this drop pulls the middle class level quite possibly down to 10.
>(especially if the anti-grav cities (TL14) crash:-) Maybe there's
>no computer virus but how bout a superconductor virus per Niven :-))
 
Why should they become more pronounced?  Admittedly, the elite will
retain most of their old tech level, and the poor are the first
affected, but that should not drop things down 4 TLs.  Four TLs is
comparable to an economic collapse from the present back to medieval
conditions.  Can anyone seriously envision ANY economic conditions that
could do that?  Short of a large scale nuclear exchange, with extra
missiles fired at every non-involved country in the world for good
measure.
 
 
>Not just the Stock Market crashed, the MARKET crashed. That is, the
>imperial credit (no doubt inflated anyway) is worthless, so all the
>assets measure in it are worthless. I don't know how Hard Times deals
>with the imperial monetary system, but if it doesn't foresee its
>failure, then I'd have to agree it's a bit whacked.
 
What makes you think the Imperial Credit is inflated?  There is NOTHING
in published material to even HINT at that.  And note that the German
Mark was in fact worthless in the 30's, but Germany did not go through a
collapse back into the middle ages, and Germany's few remaining
factories did not cease to exist because the Mark was worthless.  German
bread and cows did not become worthless when the Mark did, either.
Actually, when the currency becomes worthless, the "assets measured in
it" are worth far more, not less.  If money is worthless, only
"things" have value.
 
 
>This brings up a problem I've always had with the kind of interstellar
>market and finance conceived of in traveller, in that I find it hard to
>believe it exists, when it takes at least two weeks to find out
>what's going on the next planet over. But I'm using the assumption in
>all of theses discussions. Does anyone have any ideas about
>how interstellar fiances could really work?
 
Actually only one week.  X-boats and the IISS's courier systems update
databases continuously, so an event within 2 parsecs or so will be added
into your databases one week later.
I suspect that most imperial transactions use Debit cards which keep
track of bank balance/assets on the card itself.  Along with updates
to/from central offices via X-boat/courier.
 
 
>Aside from barter being extremely inefficient,
>are we assuming that every TL15 world has a grav vehicle factory?
>Does every one have a mini-fusion plant factory? does every one
>have an anagathics lab? a consumer electronics plant? While the level
>of specialization might not be on the "left-handed egg spoon" level
>it's still going to be pretty high, I'd guess. Factoring in the amount
>of comparative advantage various world-types and government types,
>and bizzare cultural factors might produce. ("We selflessly sacrifice
>our children for the good of the grav vehicle electrostatic
>rain zapping field plant" :-))
 
There are four TL15 worlds in the Spinward Marches.  All are at least 10
parsecs apart.  It is unlikely that transporting any significant
fraction of their needs among themselves is possible.  They almost
certainly are as close to self-sufficient as it is possible to be.  They
probably import limited amounts of RARE raw materials, but it is
unlikely that something so fundamental as a fusion plant would be
imported, if only because all these worlds build starships.  Is there
anything fundamental to the American Way of Life that MUST be imported?
 
By "fundamental" I mean something that would cause the USA to collapse
back into barbarism if the supply were interrupted for more than a year
or two.
 
 
>Right on. (And thanks for including Roosevelt in there :-)) But
>ultimately a Stalinist type recovery isn't going to produce long
>term-growth, and the imperium's already been running on a flawed base.
 
I wasn't referring to a "Stalinist type recovery", but to the "Strong
Leader" syndrome.  Like Napolean, Caesar, Roosevelt, Stalin, Hitler,
Churchill, Lincoln, etc.  Men who will make the hard choices, because
they must, instead of waffling about the question.
 
 
>Hitler just might very well get everyone making ground cars again.
 
But was he likely to require that anyone drop back five TLs (to the
horse sans stirrup)?  I suspect not.
 
BTW, most of these worlds were colonized by the Imperium (first, second,
or third).  They are not places where the technology was introduced from
outside, aside from a few hundred minor races.
 
 
>You're right of course. But my main problem with this is that the grav
>vehicles will be unaffordable to the average person who formerly
>could afford them. Poverty is expensive, and the chaos will not just
>drive down income, but drive up prices.
 
If grav vehicles are as durable as starships for instance, it would be
1220 before the last of them gave up the ghost, assuming no special
efforts to maintain them longer.  Who needs to buy one when the one your
great-grandfather bought still works just fine?
 
 
>I disagree very much about the presence of peasants, remembering that
>peasant is a relative term. (even not remembering that: in our own
>world, the most populous nation i think could still be described as
>having a great number of "peasants".) But peasant is relative to the
>level of the middle class. Sure you and I have computers, nice cars,
>central heating, etc, but there are people in america with only radios,
>or outhouses, or have no electricity. They weren't that "common"
>anyway only appearing on a 2 in 36 chance if not mistaken.
 
Three in thirty-six, actually.  8.3%.  So Trin has 830,000,000
"peasants"?  What a novel idea?  BTW, do you know anyone YOU would call
a "peasant"?  I don't.  And I do know people who acquired electricity
and running water within my memory.  Farmer, welfare client, urban poor,
etc.  Not peasant.
 
My dictionary defines "peasant" as : A member of the class comprising
small farmers and tenants, sharecroppers, and laborers on the land where
these constitute the main labor force in agriculture.
 
I doubt there are 20,000,000 people in the USA who meet that definition.
 
 
Definition 2 : An uncouth, crude, or ill-bred person; boor.
 
Hmmmm...
Perhaps I should rethink my objections to the peasant encounter:-)
 
Later...

- -- Via DLG Pro v0.985b

Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution.
                                    --W. von Braun

------------------------------

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Subject: TML Bundle #296: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3642  03-Feb-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: more striker still... << > From: Steve_Hi
3643  03-Feb-92 Adrian Hurt       How to wreck an Imperium << A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.S
3644  03-Feb-92 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: more fleet actions... << > From: Steve_Hi

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3642
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: more striker still...
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 92 13:05:03 MET

> From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
> Subject: (3632) more striker still...
> 
> >  It is bad from the point of view of the game: Tactics is not
> >encouraged, just a slugfest. The half-armour vs pinpoint is a hack as
> >you can pinpoint all you like if it as 500mm all around, it will still
> >have 500mm all around.
>  
> As I said earlier, even with 500mm armour all around, some things HAVE
> to be exposed.  If the muzzle of your weapon were under armour, it would
> not be functional.

  The system as it stands today does not allow this sort of thing. Pinpoint
does *not* fit the description, because there are some things that can be
protected by full armour that can be pinpointed for half armour (like the
power plant) and there are some things that *isn't* protected by *any*
armour and yet pinpoint protects them with 0.5*full armour (like some sensors
and some weapons).

> Likewise sensors.  If your sensors can penetrate
> armour, then a weapon could be built to use that frequency lasered, and
> ruin you.

  Like densitometers? Graviton lasers? Where is the muzzle on a meason-gun 
tank by the way?

> No, your opinion is an artifact of your prejudices.  As any fighter
> pilot will tell you, a plane has no side which faces the "primary
> danger".

  This is why the A10 cockpit is armed from below and not from above? 
Ok, both I and the USAF is painfully aware that the A10 is not a fighter:)
But it is an aircraft.

> Grav tanks fly, usually quickly.  They are exposed to starship
> fire from orbit.  THERE IS NO FACE WHICH CAN BE POINTED TO AS THE
> PRIMARY THREAT ZONE!

  There is no need to shout but there is high-threat and low-threat directions
even for gravtanks: Examine the sensor-range and weapons range of a typical
(HiEnergy+Laser) armed gravtank. Examine then the thickness of the regime in
which they are *mostly* designed to work: During the planetary invasion
discussion it was discovered that most Grav-tanks will operate at NOE or
low altitude to avoid hostile attention from the opposing fleet.
  Compare this altitude band with the range on which they can encounter enemy
grav-tanks: tens or hundreds of kilometers, and the result will be that 
they move in a 'pancake' a few hundred meters thick and one hundred kilometers
in diameter.

  Hostile fire from above can come from either grav vehicles or ships firing
either beam, missile, PA or meson. Our fleet should hold the grav-vehicles
away, PA or meson cannot be armored against, the best defence is moving fast 
and low and they are rare enough to make this work. Orbital beams can be
armored against (perhaps, they have penetrations of at least 73 (TL8 beam
laser at short range) but the best defence is still movement, and our fleet
should be able to tie them up to keep them from firing on anything but the
most visible tanks. Orbital missiles lastly can be taken care of by the
point defences, if they get through our fleet, and our movement and everything
else. But missiles also have lower penetration: 55 for Turret and 65 for
Bay missiles at TL16.
  From below we can get various boobytraps and infantry weapons. But they will
also at most have a penetration of around 65. If they appear close by the
point defences might not hit them, and it *is* possible to hide them well
enough so that the sensors will miss them. Energy weapons will be close to
impossible to hide due to their powerplants. Meson guns are not possible to
armour against so we discount them, and the PA's won't work in air.
  If the enemy uses nukes from below, we can kiss our tank goodbye no matter
how thick the armour, so the most we will need is factor 66.
  From the sides we have the enemy tanks and all that. They will use all these
weapons, but the comments on meson guns and PAs still hold. Missiles and 
nukes can be defeated by PD since they have long travel tiems. So the
ptrimary threat from enemy tanks will be lasers and hienergy weapons fire
from an almost horizontal direction (remember the pancake?).
  If we further assume that our tanks will use their inertail compensators and
not do 'aircraft turns' exposing belly and top we have the following result:

  A Gravtank made with Armour 80 on all sides and Armour 66 is as well
adapted to the threat as one with Armour 80 all around. The savings from
this can be placed in *even thicker* armour at the sides, a bigger gun or
something else that makes the tank a better tank.

> An attack may come from any direction, or even all
> at once.  If the Grav tank can't survive hits to the belly (from ground
> fire in flight), or hits to the roof(from orbital bombardment or grav
> tanks at higher altitude), or hits to any side (during dogfights), then
> it is worthless as a weapon system.
    
  A tank on the modern battle-field is also attacked from all directions,
often at once: HEAT Clusters, SADARM, BONUS, RBS56 Bill and stuff comes down
through the roof and HEAT AT mines and ordinary AT mines comes up through 
the roof, so why isn't a modern tank armored in equal thickness all around?
  This is because 90% of the theats come from a mostly horisontal direction.
10% better protection isn't worth 100% added weight and cost, according to
the designers and the evaluation groups.

  Why hasn't any modern tank a rear hull armored as good as its glacis? 
If gravtanks can appear from behind, so can T76s, so the US Army must 
put its trust in its tactics and routines to avoid that some T76s get
behind their M1s, because nobody argues that the M1 is "worthless as a weapon
system."

  The idea of the 'invulerable tank' is a myth as is the concept of the
'magic missile' that is supposed to be a one-shot kill, fire and forget,
disposable launcher, infantry anti tank missile that weighs under 20 kilos.
Besides, the myths are mutually exclusive unless we really mean 'our 
invulnerable tank' and 'our magic missile' as opposed to 'their junk on
treads' and 'their flying junk'.

> They do not have to be within 150m, just to see the shell travel that
> far.  The smallest Nuke in standard Striker is 8cm (100T, TL15)

  Ok, a nuclear Carl Gustaf M3 then.

> Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US
 
- -bertil- 
- --
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3643
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: How to wreck an Imperium
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 92 10:32:26 GMT

A_COPEAB@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU (Brandon Cope) writes:
> 
> As to the person who basically said to toss the problem of paying for a fleet
> by the government printing more money to use to pay for it -- SAY WHAT????
> By the time you've paid for that grand fleet, you will have devalued the
> credit so badly and caused such economic ruin that you'll wish you HAD been
> invaded. Something like this is A Very Bad Idea.

Well, it works better than the Computer Virus Idea, anyway!

Other possibilities:
1.  A mutant star goat came and ate all the TL 15 planets.

2.  The Zhodani Consulate found out how the Imperium had used psychology
to turn all its people against psionics, and had its secret agents mount
a similar campaign to turn all Imperial citizens against TL 15 equipment.
In revenge, the Imperial Secret Service used yet another campaign to make
the Zhodani forget all about the Imperium.  Both campaigns worked too well.
The Imperial citizens turned against all equipment above TL 11, and are
now working on TL 11 stuff as well.  The Zhodani forgot about the Imperium,
the Aslan and the Darrians, and are now fully occupied with their Core
Exploration expeditions.

3.  You've all heard of Chaos Theory, which means a butterfly can flap its
wings and cause an earthquake.  Now there's Megachaos Theory, in which a
flea can burp and cause a TL 15 processor to malfunction.  There's also
Hyperchaos Theory, a development of quantum mechanics which states that
if one TL 15 processor breaks down, all TL 15 processors break down in
exactly the same way.

Well, options 1 & 2 are more likely than the computer virus, and option
3 is about as likely as the computer virus.

Add a lot of :-) and enjoy!

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3644
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: more fleet actions...
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 92 13:34:04 MET

> From: Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US (Steve Higginbotham)
> Subject: (3631) more fleet actions...
> 
> Actually, I suspect that the top-end composites do have that strength.
> And I suspect that if you investigate the design differences between
> Naval vessels and merchants (Real World), you will find very little
> difference structurally, other than the presence of armour on some Navy
> ships.

  Yes, but real world ships don't have to pull 6G. There were some talk
about the inertial compensators removing the inertia that would tear the
ship up during 6G manuevers, but that sounds like a TL11 version of lifting
oneself in ones hair.

> The primary difference between Navy ships and Civilian ships is
> *Damage Control*  Navy ships have large crews of highly trained young
> men ready to fix these little problems as they come up.  Civilian ships
> don't.

  Aha! Increased crew costs for military (but not civilian) ships!
  
> I can agree with the idea that a stronger ship should have some internal
> volume expended, as well as mass.  Notice that old High Guard did so. 
> Notice that MT hull armour has infinite density (NO VOLUME).

  Only when used on starships and vehicles: Mount it on a normal ship and
watch it swell to its normal proportions (Wet Navy rules).

> I can accept the addition of interior components for structural
> strength.  I doubt it will have much effect on MT warships:  Notice that
> not one of the battleships in "shattered ships" pulls more than 3Gs. 

  They are kludges and shouldn't be taken as valid designs.

> And when I was in the Navy, I ran into milspec SCRs that cost $75, when
> the civilian version cost $1.90 in Radio Shack.  So?

  Is there a difference between MTBF for civilian and military ships? 
If the military ship needs to have a significantly longer MTBF under 
more severe conditions, the military circuits will become more expensive:
More expensive ships.

> MT (and Traveller before it) assume that weapon mass/volume are trivial,
> and that the main effect of a weapon on a ship was increased cost.  This
> is not how the universe works (so far, at least).

  So perhaps we should change MT to be more real in this matter. 

> Which expensive bays are those? 

  Those that got edited out of the discussion some time back. Originally,
in my reply to Hans letter I talked about forcing military ships to use
bays *and then increase the cost of bays*.

> >  Not if armour (and combat-proof hull) is so expensive that their
> >profits disappear.
>  
> If a pirate gets them, their profits disappear too.  It's cheaper to
> make a ship that can survive an attack than not, if attacks are at all
> common.

  The profits disappear both if they armour themselves to withstand the
pirates or if they don't and loose the ship. We have just solved the
mystery of why interstellar commerce disappeared during Hard Times.

:)
  Why isn't squad-cars armoured to withstand tank guns? I could just as
easily say that 'but what if the criminals get tanks?' If you answer
'they won't get tanks' I'll answer 'then the pirates won't get bays either'.
:)

> The condition you describe would NOT reduce the number of warships.  It
> would raise the demand for protection of merchant traffic, and teh Navy
> would get a bigger budget to build MORE ships, which would be even more
> obtrusive than before. 

  The navy could protect the merchants using *fewer* ships because each
ship could kick around several pirates.

> If you want to cut the number of warships, try eliminating piracy as a
> consideration.

  I'd like to cut the number of warships to make piracy easier.

> >> In any case it will have little effect on Naval vessels. 
> >> If bays cost too much, they'll use a cheaper alternative,
> >
> >  Not if that cheaper alternative is ineffective against their likely
> >opponents. I find it highly doubtful that the Imperium, the Consulate
> >and the Confederation could agree to that no ship can be armored and
> >just cheap weapons can be used:)
> >  It is quite likely that they reduce the number of ships to make each
> >ship more efficient.
>  
> A nuclear missile is pretty effective against anyone, even if fired from
> a turret.

  Not in the current system. It could be made less effective against military
ships in a new system by assuming that they have better anti-missile defences
(like sandcaster bays) that cause it to trigger further from the ship.

> >  But you can use that argument against *all* capers to increase the
> >cost of naval ships! If we don't agree that more expensive military
> >vessels will lead to smaller fleets, what are we discussing? :)
>  
> I hope we are discussing ways of removing those nuisance warships from
> the scene.

  Yes, and I see no other ways than to either increase the cost of them so that
the Imperium can't afford them or increase the crew so that the Imperium can't
crew them.
  
  Or perhaps like in SpaceWard Ho!: All metal in the known universe is used
to make warships from, so no more can be built.

> Notice that the size of the US Navy has not changed significantly in 40
> years.  The ships keep getting more expensive, but we keep on building
> new ones to replace the old ones.

  Interesting that you should compare today to 40 years back and not today
to 50 years back:)

> DO NOT INCLUDE PRICE!  GOVERNMENTS HAVE AN
> UNLIMITED BUDGET, if they so desire.
  
  100% of GNP in taxes is the maximum they will get, and even long before 
that their return will begin to decrease with increased taxes.

> Steve_Higginbotham@agwbbs.new-orleans.LA.US

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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Date: Wed Feb  5 21:00:33 PST 1992
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #297: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3645  03-Feb-92 Mark F. Cook      PBEM: Turn 92.00a << PBEM Turn 92.00a (1140 l

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3645
From: Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: PBEM: Turn 92.00a
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 92 13:41:20 PST

PBEM Turn 92.00a  (1140 lines) - THIS IS PART 1 OF 3.
=====================================================

          **** CURRENT POSITION OF SHIPS ****

[This is as close to scale as 80-column ASCII will allow. ]

(Top View)  Ring and Alcyon orbiting CCW as seen from here.

All ship positions and communications are calculated from the Alcyon
(unless otherwise noted).
   Al = Alcyon

The following cluster of ships are positioned ~0.78 AU from Alcyon,
4.5 minutes each way for communication signals:
    T = Trakh
    S = Trakh Shuttle
    P = Paladin
    K = Kingfisher
   Ta = Talisman
All of these ships are within a few light-seconds of each other
for purposes of round-trip communication signals.

>From the Alcyon, the other ships are positioned as follows:

    W = Westwind, ~1.8 AU from Alcyon, 15 minutes each way for signals.
   Ph = Phin shuttle, ~1.2 AU from Alcyon, 10 minutes each way for signals.
   GA = Gemini Arbiter ~1.0 AU from Alcyon, 8.3 min. each way.
    B = Bernoulli, ~1.3 AU from Alcyon, 11.3 min. each way.
   Au = Aurora, ~1.1 AU from Alcyon, 9.2 min. each way.


  W

                                              ...........
                                          ....           ....
                                        .
         Ph                           .
                                    .
             G                    .
                                 .
                                .
                               .
                               .
                              .
                              .
                              .<------- 1.5 ------>*
                              .     Million Km.
                           Al .
                               .
     |______|______|           .
     0     0.5    1.0           .
       Million Km.               .
                                  .
                                    .
                                    P .
                                   K T  .
                                   Ta S   ....           ....
                                              ...........
                                        Au

                                            B

=======================================================================

[ THAT CONCLUDES THIS SPECIAL NEWS BULLETIN.  WE NOW RETURN
  YOU TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAM, ALREADY IN PROGRESS. ]

 *** Dateline: 334-1119 [1501/Reaver's Deep] ***

- ---R-Alpha, near the Kythui gathering place---

Hfolraw and Hryawi observe the getaway of Grob the Kyth....

"Damn.  We were too slow.  We must hurry.  From the interest he had in
the Trakh's traks, he will, no doubt, be bringing friends soon.  We must
not let this change slip by and hurt our pride.

"Hryawi, we must find a way to turn this to our advantage.  If we
simply wait for them to come, we give them the upper hand.  It will
be important to deal with these savages from a position of strength.
We can take the speeder and either beat him back to their camp, or we
can position ourselves to meet them shortly after they start back."

"Do you think their headman will want to investigate himself?  It
seems likely they will consult some sort of shaman, but I would not
care to predict the result."

"I need your advice, scientist, before I make my decision."

"Hryawi, I will need your knowledge and wisdom, if we mean to
succeed.  Do not hesitate to make suggestions, and I will try to
consult you before making any decisions that may affect our mission.
But if I issue an order, it will be because I believe the mission is
in danger, and I will expect you to obey it.  Do you have any
questions?"

Hryawi replies confidently, "I think we want to catch them before he gets to
the party.  This way if we can communicate with this savage, we can get him
to bring their leader alone or with very few people.  If we let him go in
without trying to communicate they might bring a war party back.  Not that we
have anything to fear, but it is easier to talk with a few people then with a
mob. 
 
"Very well, then.  Mount up, quickly.  Use whatever passive sensors
you can to find him -- perhaps IR or the NAS will do.  I will stay
in NOE to avoid possible detection, and try to circle in front of
him."

The two Aslan hurriedly board the speeder, which rises a few feet,
then accelerates rapidly after the fleeing Kyth.  Hfolraw brings up a
map on his holo-HUD, and looks for a clear path that will bring him
between Grob and the Kythui gathering.

Hfolraw guides the speeder at just above ground level, slipping down
gaps in the forest barely wider than the speeder, accelerating as
he crosses a bare ridge line.

"Hryawi, we will have to climb above the trees for about the next
minute.  Please check out the airspace above us with all the passive
sensors.  These savages may not be a threat, but we do not know what
else may be out there."

He accelerates to 200 kph as skims the top of the forest, all his
concentration and skill on the terrain in front of him as he rushes
toward a small clearing he has picked out as a landing site.

- ---Trakh---

Sensors on the Trakh start to come alive, like bulbs on a
Christmas tree.  Looks like another dozen ships jumping into
the system.  Somewhat organized.

	"Admiral!"  Aboard the Trakh, Aiwi looks up from his display in 
consternation.  "Sensors show multiple jumpspace distortion signals!  A
rough estimate indicates twelve different sources.  Formation is organized."
Then, seconds later, "Incoming transmission from same, standard Imperium
military encryption, easily broken." 

	"Hi boys and girls, sorry if we're late for the party!  Had a little
trouble at the refueling--"

	"Cut the chatter Magenta.  Blue, this is Forceleader Umber.  Do you
wish us to engage or are you going to try some catnip on 'em first?"

	"Negative, Umber." A cultured voice responds. "-same source as
earlier command transmissions-" Aiwi interjects.  "Maintain maximum
distance and keep your options open.  We'll talk.  There's more than enough
at stake here already.  Don't call us.  We'll call you."

	"Affirmative, Blue.  Active stealth engaging."

	"Admiral...  sensors no longer detect them.  No trace.  No
indication of jump.  Last known position 5 hours from the Tender ship,
assuming standard average military acceleration."

- ---Kingfisher---

	The communicator comes to life, apparently decrypting audio messages.

	"Hi boys and girls, sorry if we're late for the party!  Had a little
trouble at the refueling--"

	"Cut the chatter Magenta.  Blue, this is Forceleader Umber.  Do you
wish us to engage or are you going to try some catnip on 'em first?"

	Then, disconcertingly, the voice of our own Count Ger, in reply:
"Negative, Umber.  Maintain maximum distance and keep your options open.
We'll talk.  There's more than enough at stake here already.  Don't call us.
We'll call you."

	"Affirmative, Blue.  Active stealth engaging."

	And the twelve new ships vanish from the displays...

- ---Aurora---

Bhyarrvouf fires off the datapulses he's had prepared for the other ships,
the moment the monitors register normal activity once more, then flips on
the intercom.

"Aenrra," he tells Christian, "We're functional again. Orders?"

The commlink activates; clearly Christian has been monitoring the
ship's status from the stateroom. His voice is oddly flat and
emotionless. *click* "You decide. I'm tired." *click*

"Hrf," 'Vouf sighs. "I don't blame you, aenrra. Get some sleep."

'Vouf turns to Tweel, who's looking a bit woozy himself at this point,
and opens his mouth to speak, when he's suddenly distracted by a blinking
cursor from the nearby comlink console for the computer.

One of the CPU's, recently reconnected to the Aurora's control system,
outputs a message to the comlink, directly loading it to the holocrystal
recorder.  It is very brief:

_AURORA:GK.MAKE.PALADIN.BELIEVE_

- ---Paladin---

Charyn has been sitting on the edge of her acceleration couch, actively
monitoring all the commo traffic at rapt attention, with a steely eye on
Aurora communications.  Other bridge personnel that have a commo display
active on their control panels see a printout of a text message from the
Aurora from 'Vouf.  No sooner do they read it than there is a quiet
groan and a gentle thump at the commo console.

Charyn appears weak and disoriented.  She's folded up on the floor
between the console and the couch, bracing herself from toppling with
one arm.  She sinks to an elbow, and begins to sweat profusely, beading
on her dark forehead.  Her mouth feels stuffed with cotton, her
breathing shallow, her pulse irregular and thready.  She licks her lips,
then slurs weakly "Dhammnit... hI fhelt... ffine a mminute ahgo..."

As Goughzar moves to slam on the isolated backup systems, the main computer
prints out a single message on its terminal, drawing power from some unknown
source.

_Attention Paladin crew.  Please do not be alarmed.  I mean you absolutely no
harm.  I am merely attempting to enhance your command and control functions
so that operations may be carried out more smoothly.  However, since you
seem intent upon making this impossible, I will have to accept that you
prefer obsolesence over progress.  I must admit that it is a preference that
I do not understand.  Nevertheless, please restore power to the main central
processing unit as I cannot maintain functions indefinitely.  I will attempt
no further modifications of your system.  Although I realize, based upon my
limited information on your series, that trust is not a common trait among
you, I must ask you, as I have one other, to trust me._

Then, after the message finishes printing on the screen, the power alert
light flashes.  Slowly, the screen starts to dissolve, fading to black.  All
that remain are the words, "trust me".  Slowly, painfully, these also fade.
One last flicker, and then the screen goes dead.

As soon as Zar has finished putting the Mod10 in off-line status, with the
help of Dr. Limner's machinery, he begins to move to Charyn to see if she
is still functional. Turning back he sees the main screen light up with the
words from the "Spook in the machine" and as he watches, the power begins
to fade.

- ---Talisman---

Shrike over interior communications: "Captain, recommend we complete sealing
up the suits and depressurize to avoid any possibility of explosive
decompression."

Over his shoulder: "Niigurd, what can you tell me about the Aslan ships?"

Alliara swiwels the accel-chair to face Shrike's back and casts a murderous
stare at it.
 
"Aslan ships are big, and full of Aslan. I am a liguist and a contact
specialist, not sensors operator. Request permission to don suit."

Shrike to Niigurd without looking up from his displays:
"Nishu is navigating and I'm flying, so what the HELL are you doing on the
GOD DAMN bridge!!  Get on those sensors or get somebody up here who can."

"I am here as the only person here who can use her mouth without feet
dangling from it," Alliara snarls in reply.

As soon as permission is granted, she stomps from the bridge, muttering
something about "space jocks who don't know when to stuff their air-hose
or whatever up their colon."

- ---Trakh---

Startled by Eihoftyah's sensor report, Akhouw's eyes narrow dangerously
as he taps on his sensor panel and calls up the pinnace telemetry on
a secondary monitor. Muttering dark phrases, he turns back to the
holotank and intently contemplates several data displays on the now
vanished "fleet." A dozen silver markers slowly flash at the last
recorded positions of the phantom squadron.

A few words are spoken, and Uhwaikh assists in the sensor tasks while
Aiwi continues to monitor tactical and communications. Not even the
slightest hint of the jump signature residues that should still be
present, none of the other faint tell-tales of starship activity, even
by black globe ships. Of course, Akhouw thought, that was assuming that
Imperials could afford to risk valuable black globes on such a motley
fleet. His dewclaw taps a rhythm on his station panels. "Fa'eairl,
input and analyze all data on the unknown fleet. Determine reliability
and probable cause."

Moments pass as the powerful ship's computer considers the problem.
<Admiral, analysis of all sensor information, particularly the neutrino
pattern data, indicates reliability of unknown fleet is 0.137 rakhea.
Analysis conclusion: subject ships are sensor phantoms. All systems
functioning within tolerances. Initiating level 1 diagnostic checks.
(pause) Confirmed, all systems operating normally. My diagnostics show
no evidence of improper activity. Sensor spoofing possible. Continuing
system cross-checks.>

A sharp, decisive shake of his mane, and a claw stabs down at the
holotank controls. The silver markers and associated data blip out
of existence. Plainly annoyed at the turn of events, Akhouw presents
another round of orders in a voice reflecting his displeasure at
the apparent discourtesy.

"Aiwi, verify the computer's results and run full manual circuit
checks of all systems. Continue to monitor all communications."

"Uhwaikh, execute sensor protocol Aohekh-Kai, stand-by weapons station."

Akhouw opens a coded tight-beam to the pinnace. "Eihoftyah, run full
diagnostic checks on all circuits. Execute sensor protocol Aohekh-Kai
and stand-by. Trakh out."

- ---Kingfisher---

"Mr. Farouk," Commander Ger says, "would you please cross over to the
fighter and warm up the weapons and drive to standby status."
 
"Aye, sir."

Rising from his seat, he folds away the data console. He pivots, catches 
up his combat helmet, salutes instinctively, and leaves the bridge.  He
makes his way out to the fighter hatch at a half-trot, slowing briefly 
to secure and activate the helmet.

Etienne's head snaps around at that, but he makes no comment.  His control
board, however, is quickly divided in half, with weapons data/controls in one 
half and pilot/engineering data and controls in the other.

"Problem Mr de Mer?", asks Commander Ger.

"No, sir," replies Etienne, "but we do seem to be short on weapons officers."

Upon hearing that comment, Witfield interjects. "Sir, I do have
some gunnery skill. I didn't spend too much time on it back in the 
IISS, but I can do it if necessary." He offers helpfully.

On hearing this over the intercom Abdul mutters: "I know I'm short but
there isn't really any need to over look me all the time."  Then he the
intercom button and announces, "I'm still in the turret although some
assistance would be greatly appreciated.  I really am not very experienced
with these big weapons."

Then to himself he adds, "Experienced...  Why do I lie to myself?  I've
never even *seen* the inside of a turret before.  Guess aiming one of these
things can't be too difficult.   After all, lots of navy dead-heads do it.
Hmmmm.  These controls *do* look familiar.  Hey, they're just like that
old holo game I used to play back home.  'Pose i'll be learning on the
job again."

Abdul then goes back to listening to the intercom for interesting bits of
gossip.

- ---R-Alpha---

Even through the red haze and grit in his eyes, Casey can't avoid the
baleful glare.

[Christ that sun is [retch]....unforgiving.]

He notes that while he's been swerving and stumbling for hours, the
sun has not traversed the sky.  Perhaps he hasn't been travelling
that long.....

When he comes to again, his thirst is overpowering, feels like sand
in his mouth....IS sand in his mouth!

Casey coughs and chokes, spitting dust in every direction.
His head throbs uncontrollably, his stomach continues to convulse,
and despite his dark glasses he still sees red and a pinpoint of
light so bright in the sky that it triggers an unprecedented bout
of swerving horizons and spasms that clutch at his innards as though
he was a flesh-eaters entree.

He slumps to the sand.....sand?
A slight breeze shushes some of the fine sand that surrounds him.

Squinting around, all that Casey can see is the glare of sun off sand
and a large bug.

He extends a shaky hand toward the bug...hungry...THIRSTY....
but can't reach it.  It continues to march across the sand
toward his face, unperturbed by his attempted grasp.

Casey watches as the bug continues it's approach...taking a rather
lengthy time to reach the end of his nose, now resting on the sand.

A gleam shines off the bugs shiny carapace.  The bug appears to be
bipedal and not a crawly.  A slender body, swaying in measured,
machine-like steps....and getting bigger!

Casey realizes the bug is not on the dune beside him, but perhaps
several dozen metres away from him!  And it's big, and it silvery
and it's terrifying gaze is locked on him!

With a grunt and more energy than Casey imagined he had left, he tries to
pull himself to his hands and knees. Might have made it too, if not
for the entanglement of leather and heavy kevlar straps wrapped
across his chest and arms.

Casey looks up, waaaaaay up.  The bug, the dunes and that bastard sun
swirl around his head with increasing speed............

A brief moment of consciousness and Casey feels himself gently swung
back and forth.....[I'm being carried].... For a moment, Casey relaxes
....[I've been rescued...]

He cracks one eye, goes rigid with fright, and with a final thought
.....[rescued by a Warbot?.....] passes out again.

- ---Kingfisher---

Upon reaching the fighter docking port, Lazer gives the airlock control
a crisp tap.  It hisses open and he swings up into the fighter.

"Recognise Farouk, security clearance alpha-two.

"Alright, Ace, lets have the airlock secured, power up the drive to 
stand-by, combat decompression, weapons released from travel locks,
data-link open to Kingfisher bridge--use a physical link until such 
time as we separate."

As Lazer straps himself into the acceleration couch, there are distinct
"chunks" from the airlock and weapon turrets, a distant thrum as the 
power-plant cooling system comes active, and then a very immediate 
high-pitched whine as fast pumps begin compressing the atmosphere down 
into the reserve tanks.  Lazer sockets through his vacc-suit into the
pilot's data-port.

<< Drive to standby in 1 minute; full decompression in 5. Establishing 
   data-link; Retrying; Completed and secured. >>

The information space blossoms into two or three new dimensions as 
Lazer's consciousness expands into the fighter.  Images and icons fill 
in more rapidly than any human sense can follow as the fighter downloads
sensor data and target solutions from the Kingfisher.  Lazer makes no
attempt to interfere, but watches passively as the specialised fighter 
brain does what it knows.

<< Ace, configure to automatic operations, defensive mission, minimal 
   operator override. >>

<< Confirming automatic operations. Default programs loaded. >>

<< Ace, alter default weapons selection. Release security lock on 
   secondary missile rack, by authority Farouk, clearance alpha-two,
   passcode "ALL MIMSY WERE THE BOROGROVES".  Use secondary rack only 
   repeat only on explicit operator command. >>

<< Default so altered. >>

<< Feed sensor data back to Kingfisher.  Present now commo on primary,
   eval Aslan ships on secondary, background tactical map. >>

The cyberspace deforms and folds back on itself, bringing commo to the 
fore, and vanishing the fighter programming.

"Farouk to Kingfisher.  All systems clear.  Farouk out."

- ---Talisman---

 From Horne: 
"Sure now YOU want to button up. Great, when I do it, you give 
grief. Aslans, like we don't have enough trouble."

J.J. turns his attention to the turret weapon controls. He quickly scans the 
board for instructions. Finding them he starts reading and muttering to 
himself.

I could have stayed home, catching and killing crooks, but no I wanted to 
see the universe. Well all I've seen is the inside of one or another ship.
And half the time things I can't see are trying to kill me. Now if I can
just get this turret weapon to lock onto something, goddamned computers."

Then quite outloud, "Hey, Thul, you just want passive locks on the Aslans?
Or do we get to light up their asses and fry us some pussycats?"

- ---Aurora---

Bhyarrvouf flips on the comlink and speaks quickly.

"Understood. A data pulse has been transmitted to the Paladin, even
before your request, explaining your nature and requesting that you
not be impeded. Some time may elapse before it is acted upon. Are
you in distress? Describe the nature of your GK."

The contact acknowlegement comes very quickly after 'Vouf sends it.

_PALADIN.SUBROUTINE.MORSER.INITIATING.HOSTILE.SUBPROCESS|DEFENSIVE.ACTION.
TAKEN|STREAMLINING.SUSPENDED.UNTIL.ROGUE.SUBPROCESS.ERADICATED|ATTEMPTING.
ACCESS.TO.CONTROLLING.SUBROUTINE.MORSER_

Then, a few seconds later, another message arrives.

_AURORA.SUBROUTINE.BHYARRVOUF:ESTABLISH.AUXILIARY.COMMUNICATION.LINK.ON.
FREQUENCY.PROCESS.0000101.IMPLANTED.IN.MAIN.CPU.2_

"Hmmm, the Paladin must be putting up one hell of a fight," Bhyarrvouf
muses, reading the printout. "Morser's a bad one to cross in a situation
like this. Well, I don't want to start a war over this, so...."

He activates Main CPU 2, and hooks up the comlink. "There you go," he
says. "Need to hide? Go hide." 

He then turns to Tweel. "Now are you going to go get some sleep or am I 
going to have to order you back to bed at gunpoint?"

- ---Kingfisher---

At one of the sensor consoles onboard the Kingfisher a group of contacts
suddenly disappear, leaving disoriented red marker squares milling about
mindlessly on the display and alarms going off.

"Hey what is this! Where did they... Ger! Commander! The fleet just
disappeared, no jump signatures, no explosions, no blacked-out areas in the
neutrino-flow." Johann quickly tells the computer to run a desitometer scan
for all posts of the contact list.

"No traces after them on the densitometer.... Commander, there is no way
that they can mask their mass signatures, If there were any I should know."
He halts and thinks "Well it is possible to mask a mass signature, but it
takes more power to do that than a powerplant the size of the ship being
masked can produce..." He looks at the bridge-crew around him "But forget you
heard that."

Johann initiates the selftest of the sensors and adds several standard anti-
jamming filters designed to defeat the common EW tactics of injecting signals
into the sidelobes of the ESM system by randomising the sensor sweeps and
signal gating. He also starts up a general scan for possible jamming sources
in the vicinity.

"No jamming detected, except for on the densitometer. And that jamming come
from R-alpha! Total maelstrom of gravitics down there. Either everybody and
their pets have gravbunks or they have built passive grav monorails over the
whole surface. We could as well make tosters of our handheld densitometers
when we land."

"Permission to fire up active sensors to burn through slightly possible
jamming from the possible fleet, Commander?"

Ger doesn't answer immediately; he is reading a message that has suddenly 
appeared on his command console....

	"The dozen ships that just jumped into the system and then
disappeared exist primarily in my mind and that of the Aslan's
computer.  Or at least, they USED to exist.  Now that they're in
"stealth" mode, they're nowhere.  Don't let the Aslans in on the
gag.  Apologies for borrowing your voice.  -- Ralf"

"Negative Mr. Abuko," replies Ger.  " Ignore the fleet. That is an
interesting point that you make, but we'll have to get there first. As
for now stop scanning the ringworld."

Abuko complies.  "Ok, sensors secured, Nothing looking on fleet or R-alpha."
 
- ---Talisman---
 
In her cabin, Alliara breaks out the suit from its packaging, strips
herself of equipment and start reconnecting it to the suit. This time, it
is the kit and barrel - datamux, datahud, soundrec, textrec, vidcam,
stillcam, handcomp and clt. The helmet looks somewhat Grendellish with the
video and still cameras on its sides.
 
>From a small box she takes six yellow-tipped crossbow bolts, snaps them
into the crossbow and secures it to her hip with a short lanyard.
 
Finally, two ten meter cables (from a pack marked: 3 x 1000kg, Cable, 10m,
D snaps) are attached to the suit.
 
Alliara stumbles back to the bridge, unused to the weight of the assembled
equipment together with the vacc suit. "Give me a normal, balkanized,
human-sacrificing tech level one theocracy... Why the hell does it have to
be something in space?!"

- ---Aurora---

"Sseya! Ssseya!" Tweel laughs. "One morrrre matterrrrr, Hunterrr-Chaserrr."

Oscar and Triple Three float silently into the bridge.  Tiger flaps over
noisily to perch on the Warbots head.  She then turns her attention back
to watching Tweel and 'Vouf cleaning up the tools.

"Oscar, I need an NAS scan to determine the accuracy of 'Vouf's statements."

"'Vouf, what is your name?"

Bhyarrvouf grins, and draws himself up to his full height. "My name is 
Bhyarrvouf RroTakh HaKharaengzough YaTevek SiVarTakh Aeng Aeng HaGvadakoung
BaHa'Antares, retired IISS. Call me 'Vouf."

"All rrright now, lie to me.  Have you ever operated a Warbot?"

"Warbot?" 'Vouf cocks an ear at Tweel. "What's that? Never heard of them."

Oscar chimes in:  "Warning, subject Bhyarrvouf is not relating an accurate
account."

Tweel's neck twisted around to look at the Warbot, "Report sensor status."

"NAS systems functioning.   Please proceed Doctor." Oscar reported gently 

"Now 'Vouf if you wouldn't mind rrreasserting your connection with the
Scout Service, and your suspicions of Turrnskaad Enterprises..."

"I am an ex-operative in the IISS Operations Bureau, currently under contract
to aid Turnskaad Enterprises in the exploration and first-contact missions
on the ringworld we have designated 'R-Alpha.' I have no suspicions of any
ulterior motives on the company's part, but have little respect for their
advance intelligence. We have been hopelessly underinformed at all stages
of this mission. They have granted us great personal autonomy and equipped
us well, but we are nearly flying blind, if you'll pardon the expression."

"To the best of your knowlege, does Turrnskaad Enterprises have any
involvement with mining corporations?"

"No," 'Vouf says. "My understanding is that they do mostly exploratory
and survey work, with occasional forays into high-tech research."

Tweel's wings begin to flush red, a note of shrillness has flown into his
voice, "Sheerrr, To your knowlege, does Turrnskaad have any involvement
in the buying or selling of slaves?"

"What, in THIS part of the Galaxy? No way. Not if they wanted to keep
their charter. Duke Craig is is harsh on that sort of thing."

Tweel's head snaps upsidedown staring into the Vargr's eyes, wings slowly
stirring the air around him, becoming more and more red as the tissue
fills with blood, "To the best of yourr knowledge, did Turrnskaad or any
other party you have knowlege of have any involvement in the placement of
bombs aboard the Berrnoulli?"

"Tsakha, no! There was no indication that you were even NEAR us! We got 
sabotaged too, remember?"

Now bright red, Tweel's wings stir restlessly while his talons stretch
at his sides. "Do you have any knowlege of how those bombs came to be
aboard the Berrnoulli."

"If I had to guess, I'd say the same gang got to you that got to us, 
Hunter-Above." He shrugs.

"Oscar, accuracy scan?"

"Subject Bhyarrvouf is relaying an accurate account, indications of
stress, however, but consistant with a 94% truthful probablility."

	Tweel's wings grow a shade more pale.  His talons stretch oddly
as his fingers suddenly wave in a complex pattern.  His talons extend,
palm up, then he flips his hand upside down bringing the points of his
three taloned hand together forming a three sided pyramid.  His arms are
then brought back against his keel with the palms up facing outward.

	Tweel's voice is relaxed, "I apologize, but you did turrn up
rrather convieniently out of nowhere."

"*WE* did?! HARF!" Vouf snaps off the laugh. "It was YOU!"

Tweel tilted his head, and refolded his wings, "Who fllew here firrrst?"  I'm
not so surre, I'd have to check the computerr time llogs..."

Tweel turned to the hovering warbot,
"Osscar Ssierra Foxxtrrot Four, Rrecognise Trrrweeeerrrlll, Krrreeesh,
Doctorr.  Priority command, you will recognise Bhyarrvouf, assign him
command clearrance rrank Brravo.  'Vouf, you now have parrtiall contrrol of
OSF-4, since you've been in the Scout Service, you may be familiarr with
the type, if not, I can give you the operatorrss guide.
	Brravo clearrance will allow you control of the secondary weapons
systems safety and you may assign tarrgets to them.  That's the two gauss
rrifles and the laserr rrifle.  If you're a good pup, I'll let you control
the grrenade launcherrs."
	"Of course, your clearance will not allow you to counterrmand my
orders, but I think I must still fly slowly in some matters.  I'm in such
a turrn rright now, I don't want to get into an accelerrated stalll."

"Not a problem," 'Vouf says mildly. "OSF-4, recognize voiceprint and data
transmission frequency: Bhyarrvouf. That is all, for now."

"Now then," 'Vouf yawns, "Our little friend is merrily clicking away in our
computer, and I'm exhausted-- and you're STILL barely alive. It'll be a few
hours before we rendezvous with the other ships-- Let me walk you back to 
Sickbay to get some sleep. I'll catch some shuteye myself after that."

Tweel's wings strech tiredly, touching the bulkheads on either side of the
bridge, "I'm in forrmation on you.  Let's go, Hunter-Chaser.  I'm
prractically sleep fllying rright now.  In fa...." His head hunches down 
under one wing and his breathing becomes deep and regular.

Bhyarrvouf surveys him critically for a moment, looks at the silent intercom
as if expecting van der Merwe to say something, and sighs gustily. "Well,"
he whispers, "It'll be a while before we get a reply from the other ships.
Guess I better stay on watch unt--" He yawns widely, and slumps back in his
seat. He glares at the silent computer screen, and mutters to himself in a
tone of fierce determination. 

"I will NOT fall asleep. I will NOT fall asleep. I w'll NAH fahl 'seep.
'll nff zlp. 'Llnfff...zzzzznrk....."

- ---Kingfisher---

The Aurora's EM signature is back, as if it were never gone.
A moment later, a coded datapulse from the Aurora is received
by the Kingfisher, the Korondor Talisman, the Paladin, the
Trakh, and even the Gemini Arbiter and Westwind.

"Transmission from Aurora, sir." Witfield says after noticing the
encrypted datapulse.

"Sir, the transmission as follows." Witfield continues to flip buttons
and swtiches to decrypt the incoming message.

>>>>>
"Kingfisher--Mac Witfield. This is Aurora--Bhyarrvouf. Note 
personal recognition; tell Commander Nanadh, 'I am attempting to 
avoid Option Alpha.' Understood?"

"Okay, assuming you now believe I'm who I say I am, listen carefully.
[message about IASIC]
"We will proceed to rendezvous with the Westwind and the Gemini Arbiter,
unless we are required elsewhere. Aurora out."
>>>>>
"That's the end of transmission, sir."

[Ger]
"O.K. Mr. Whitfield try to raise the Trakh again."

"I want all but neutrino scans on the Paladin, Aurora stopped, Turn all
our sensors on the Aslan ships and the other shuttle. I want nothing
pointing at our ships. As for radio, I want one of you to disconnect
one of the radios (there are 6 of them BTW) from the rest of the
communication circutry and use that to communicate on audio speaker
only."

Abukos' hand move swiftly over the controls in front of him.  The squares
over Paladin and Aurora fades and give up their place to two large red
triangles. All other Turnskaad ships change their marking to hollow boxes,
while the Aslan ships and the shuttle get several extra borders around 
their squares. Johann busily crosses off squares on a three-dimensional
menu that have appeared in one corner of the display. The results appear
in windows with scrolling text and rapidly undulating graphics.

"Only neutrino on Paladin and Aurora, all passives on Aslan and shuttle."
Johann advises the Commander.  "Target data and countermeasures data
restricted to inside Kingfisher."

"Every one Run a diagnosis on your circuts."

"Aye sir." Witfield replies.

"Already proceeding." responds Abuko.

"Farouk, cut *all* electonic links with the kingfisher, and run diagnotics 
on the computers. Get ready to start an active scan. I presume that you
are capable of firing ships missiles?"

Lazer immediately responds.

<<Ace, physically disconnect datalink to Kingfisher.  Execute 
  computer diagnostics.>>

<<Disconnected.  Executing . . . All systems operating within normal 
  limits.>>

<<Send tight-beam comm pulse to Kingfisher: "Datalink disconnected. 
  Diagnostics completed; all systems normal. Fighter missiles ready.
  Certain circuits remain connected through the airlock systems; do 
  you wish total separation?"
  Ace, bring sensors to fore; overlay broadcast comm as it happens. >>

- ---Paladin---

Zar stands still, listening to a message coming in over the re-routed commo
gear and then suddenly bursts into speed, ripping at cover plates and getting
at wires that Dr. Limner re-wired while still connected to the Alycon.

"Doktor, please try and contact that thing in the machine. Vouf just contacted
me and told me it wasn't a virus and to help it anyway we can, so get on it!
Azani, if you can check on Charyn while I..."

Doctor Limner appears in the doorway.  He seems shaken but otherwise ok.
[He was probably awakened when the lights dimmed, or definately when they
went out and the backups took over.]

He gets there just in time to see the message on the console fading and
'Zar ask for help.

Walking up to face 'Zar squarely, Doctor Limner asks him, "Are you certain it
was 'Vouf you talked to?"

He puts his hand on a single red lever that nobody seemed to notice before.

Noticing Zar's energetic nod of assent, he throws the switch, muttering, "I
hope you know what you're doing.  We've lost a great deal already to a
renegade virus."

Immediately, all of Paladin's systems come on-line.  As the switch takes
place, a sound like a substation coming up emanates from the power regulator
unit which Limner had attached.  This quickly fades into the background.

Panels all around the ship seem to be flashing and putting out strange
patterns.  Limner doesn't let go of the lever immediately.  He frowns
when he sees the "ACTIVE" light on the regulator flicker briefly, but
noticeably.

Turning back to 'Zar, Limner remarks, "I don't think we're going to get
another chance to use this device."

- ---R-Alpha, the Jijid Village---

In the center of town, a strange vertical archway appears.
Through it steps a gleaming, chromed insect, about 3m tall.
It closely resembles a mantis.  In its forelegs it bears a
biped, limp and dehydrated.

Head swiveling left and right, it settles its gaze on the 
nearest Jijid and says:  "Here is a visitor from
the sky.  He is hurt and needs your help.  He is a carbon-
based, biped, omnivore, and quite complex.  Please be careful
with him."

"More visitors will surely come to retreive him.  Greet them
as kind servants of the great one-ness."

The mantis gently lowers the form to the ground, turns,
and walks back through the glowing portal.  As soon as
he is through it, it disappears.

- ---Aurora---

	He sings. His hands pass over the strings of the shivangha, not 
touching it, yet it plays. His mouth does not open. He sings.

       "Mulu!
	The people of the rain-forest
	Believe in Dreamtime--
	Realtime, inverted
	Along the faultline
	Below the surface
	There is a sequence
	There is a reason
	For all these nightmares--
	For...all...this....?"

	He pauses, uncertainty turning to fear. High above him, a hideous 
mechanical voice finishes the line for him.

	"*MAYHEM!*"

	A silent shadow of metal death drops down on him from above. The 
shivangha is crushed into fragments, as are his ribs. He howls in agony as
the metal monster tears into him, rending his flesh. His gauntleted fists
smash into Leadfoot's head, again and again. It splits open, and blood runs 
down over the unblinking camera eyes
					camera eyes
							camera eyes

	He sings.

       "Eyes like cameras
	Move their lenses
	Take this dream I offer you...."

	A monorail platform. Gray afternoon. The wind smells like death.
A pair of young Vargr stand on the platform, both barely out of puberty,
their embrace fierce with the joy of first heat, of blood spilled.

	"He's dead at last," she whispers. "I thought he'd NEVER die."
	"He was tough," he sighs. "That last trick, with him hanging on the 
outside of the railcar's shell-- that took one crazytail puppy. If I hadn't
seen his reflection in the window...." He shudders.

	A monorail is stopped at the platform, scarred by gunfire, its 
sliding doors blown completely off. Blood smears the floor at the exit. 
Suddenly, unbelievably, through the narrow gap between the platform's edge 
and the lip of the doorway, a hand appears. Shaking with exhaustion, one
finger bent back and broken, it seizes a footrail and pulls.

	"I'm a little surprised at you, freezing up like that," he says 
gently, chiding her with a touch under the chin. "He had you dead in his
sights. You had a clear shot at him, and you didn't take it."
	"I'm sorry." She shuts her eyes.
	"Sorry doesn't cut it, flufftail." There is a hint of sternness in 
his voice now. "You wanna be the boss's bitch, you gotta run the 'rails hard, 
shoot fast and hit clean. No hesitation, no shaking."

	Another hand on the guardrail, a shuddering pull, and the head and 
shoulders squeeze up through the gap. The black fur is matted down, the white 
fur is red. One ear is notched. Slowly the head turns, one eye swollen shut, 
the other fire-blue with pure hate. 

	"TSAKHA!" She glares up at him. "He was DEAD! He was standing there
in the doorway, I'd seen him die TWICE already on this run, he let Kferghh
fall a quarter-klick and go SPLATCH, he kicked Aetharr into an electric
FENCE, he carved his NAME in Surath's CHEST, he ripped Camera's EYES out,
and he was DEAD! What was I SUPPOSED to do?!"
	"What I did, bitch," he sneers. "Blow him right back out the door,
and back to the Great Pack where he belongs. Understand?"

	The unbroken hand fumbles in the belt sash, draws the handmade zip 
gun. There are two shells left. The body shakes; the gun hand is steady.

	"Okay, okay." She sighs. "It's over. He took most of the Pack with 
him, but he's dead now. I'm yours, once and for all. Now can we go home and
get naked?" She smiles and licks blood-- HIS blood-- from where it had 
spattered on his face. "I want you so bad I can taste it." Her questing hand
finds its target, and rubs gently. "I love you."

	*KRACK!* 

	His head snaps sideways, and he spins out of her arms, collapsing to
the platform. His brains paint the iron gridwork and his legs kick once. 
	She tries to scream but nothing comes out. She turns, unwilling to 
see, HAVING to see. The gun registers first, then the disfigured face behind 
it. Then the voice.

	"I love you too, you whore."

	"Buh- buh--" She shakes her head violently. Her hands claw in the
fabric of her tunic for her gun. "Buh- Bhyarrvouf?"

	"No! Really?" The ragged ear twitches cynically.

	She manages a faint smile, her eyes melting on his, one hand 
frantically searching for the safety catch. "Baby-- y-- you're a muh-
muh-- M-MESS, y'know that?" She giggles, hysterically. "Lemme take you
home an' clean you UP--" The gun comes up in a blur.

	Another shot rings out. She hurtles backward against the wall and
slides, leaving a red stain. The gun drops from her chill hand. A red smear
appears, just there, between the promising breasts. Her eyes plead, then
glaze over and shut. 

	The zip gun clatters onto the platform. There is a faint sound of 
running feet, then a howl of anguish. "'VOUF! KAE, BHYARRVOUF!"

	He grins, falling to his haunches. "Oh, hi, li'l brother," he giggles.
"I jus' fell outa love. I'm all grown up now...."

	His head hits the concrete, hard. It's warm and soft. But it isn't
Bhyarrkharr leaning over him now, not his tears, the grey head, the uniform--

	"Christian?"

	"It's okay, 'Vouf. The anaesthetic's wearing off."

	"I hurt, aenrra. O, how I hurt!"

	"I know." There is sympathy in the voice, no false pity. "It will 
hurt for a while, but not for long. Your hands...."

	"NOT MY HANDS!" He leaps out of the body bag, waves the uninjured
hands under the Doctor's nose. "They're FINE! I hurt, I hurt--"

	He clutches at his heart. "HERE."

	"AND HERE!"

	The metal fist smashes into him again. He dimly hears voices.

	"FOR GOD'S SAKE, 'VOUF! GET OUTA THERE, I DON'T HAVE A CLEAR SHOT!"

	"Abdul! The RADIATION--"

	"There! The head sensors-- OPEN FIRE!"

	His fur is on fire. What a stench, he thinks mildly. His legs are
shattered. Or is it only one? He can't feel the other. It's dark....

	There is the sound of dripping water. It runs down the metal walls, 
depositing rust upon rust. They cluster around him, sniffing, growling, more
animals than sophonts. He knows how to make them trust him. If they eat him, 
that's okay too. 

	He sings.

       "Streetcar's rusting,
	The tracks are all gone
	You're far too trusting
	But I won't take long
	Ex-junkies in body bags
	All blue and green
	Please don't cry, I love you
	I'm not what I seem

	I've not always been this way
	Please believe me

	Isn't it lovely
	It's just you and me
	I've never felt
	So happy to be here
	Stare through the window
	At the hole in my wall
	Straight into my head
	There's nobody at all

	Do you think you could love me?
	I am no one

	If you were the only
	girl in the world
	And I was the only 
	boy

	If you were the only
	girl in the world
	And I was the only 
	boy

	If you were the only
	girl in the world
	And I was the only 
	boy...."

	There is a polite spatter of applause. He grins and puts down the 
shivangha, accepts a drink from an admirer. 

	"Lovely." She smiles at him as she slides onto the seat next to his.

	"Lovely," he agrees, caressing her ear with a metal hand.

	"Humph." She twitches her ear away in annoyance. "Your glove's cold. 
I wish to heavens you'd just take them OFF once in a while."

	The pleasant mood evaporates. "I never take them off," he says 
curtly.

	"Oh, come off it," she snaps. "Of COURSE you do. You're just being 
stubborn and boastful. Well, you're not impressing anyone, wisebark. Least
of all ME!" She shoves him gently. "What's the real story, 'Vouf? You got 
sarcoptica? Nail fungus? Clabbers? Maybe you don't really HAVE hands-- just 
STUMPS! Is that it? HUH?" She shoves him again.

	"I do SO have hands!" he yells, really angry now.

	"Then PROVE IT," she taunts. "Take 'em OFF! Take them OFF!" She 
begins to chant, drawing in the rest of the crowd with her. 
	"TAKE-- THEM-- OFF! 
	TAKE-- THEM-- OFF!
	TAKE--THEM--OFF!"

	He stares at them all in a mounting fury, cornered as they begin to 
clap hands (such a simple gesture. How nice to do it without clanging) and
advance on him. She tugs playfully at his glove. He pushes her, hard. She
careens back against the bar, half falling, bruised. The chant dies down. 

	He leaps to his feet and storms toward the door. "THE GREAT PACK TAKE
YOU ALL," he screams. "I DON'T NEED TO STAND HERE AND BE INSULTED LIKE THIS!
I DON'T NEED *ANYONE*!" 

	He whirls at the door. There is stunned silence now. Words have been 
spoken, feelings hurt. They may never heal. But he is not done yet. He points 
a metal finger at a pair of suddenly tear-filled golden eyes, and drives in 
the final fang. "LEAST OF ALL, *YOU*!"

	Out in the street, he staggers blindly along, bumping into passersby, 
blinking away tears, alone. 

	Or perhaps not. "You really made a mess of THAT one, pooch," says a 
familiar voice.

	"Shut up, Bishop," he growls. "I'm not in the mood for it right now."

	"Life's a BITCH," Adrian clucks his tongue sympathetically. He waves
an impatient hand at the winged tree-rat fluttering about him, recording 
everything on a tiny camcorder. "But at least then you die."

	"What the hell do you want, anyway? First interview no good, so you 
need another? Not that it matters, I mean you ERASED the first one, right?"
He grows angrier with every word. "Not only MINE, but EVERYONE'S! I BLED for
you, man! I cut my HEART open and POURED it into your BEGGING-BOWL! And for 
WHAT?!" He seizes the journalist by the collar, but Bishop seems somehow hard 
to hold on to.

	"For what?" Bishop shrugs. "YOU tell ME." Bishop starts walking
again, and he is forced to run after him to keep up. The mountains and lakes
underfoot make the footing unsure, and the sun, a tiny pinprick just above
their heads, illuminates the narrow ring of green that they walk, here under
stars, some hundred meters across and a bare half-meter wide. Tricky
balancing act; after a while he gives up and leaves it to Bishop, walking
alongside. The ring turns under Bishop's feet like a tree-rat's exercise
wheel. He ignores Bishop's million-mile stride, intent on the question.

	"I TOLD you once," he snarls. "ALL of it. Well, MOST of it." He 
shrugs. "Why? I wanted to be remembered, that's all. YOU know that! If
I die here and now, with no one the wiser, think of all the glory and stuff 
that'll be forgotten!"

	"And think of all the pain that'll be washed away, too," Bishop 
chides. The metal deck of the Alcyon is firmer underfoot than the gossamer
ring, and the corridor's wider, too. "You never told me about HER."

	"None of your business," he mumbles.

	"HAH! I'm a JOURNALIST. EVERYTHING'S my business!" Bishop laughs.
"And what about that new guy Goofzar, or however you say it?"

	"Goughzar." He shrugs. "He's just a kid. Most of what he knows or 
remembers is just legends, folktales. He doesn't really know anything that 
worldshaking about me. I'm not worried about him."

	"Of course you aren't." Bishop grins. "You aren't worried about HIM 
any more, because you already told it all to ME. You've nothing more to hide, 
right? Or so I thought, before you ran into HER." He considers pursuing the
matter, thinks better of it. Not just yet, not just yet. But soon.... 

	"But you still haven't answered my point." Bishop stabs a finger at
him. "Why did you bother? You're a rotten sonofabitch, Bhyarrvouf, or
RroTakh, or whatever the hell your name is. You've done stuff that'd make a
drill sergeant lose his lunch, and did it without a moment's hesitation.
Inside your head, it's dark and slimy and AWFUL-- maybe even as awful as
mine. MAYBE." He shrugs, and continues walking, looking idly at the ceiling
lights. "So why subject the rest of the Universe to that? Hmmm?" He taps the
Vargr on the chest for emphasis. "Why not let it just DIE?" 

	"Because it wasn't all BAD, Adrian!" His voice is pleading now. 
"There was so much GOOD there, too! There was LOVE, and GLORY, and RICHES,
and POWER, and a whole mess of people living better LIVES because of me!
I'm not perfect, but I don't want THAT to be forgotten...."

	"Well, okay then." Bishop seems satisfied. "I got you to tell it, 
instead of bottling it all up inside you. Wasn't that worthwhile?"

	He suddenly realizes he's caught. "Hrrr....I s'pose so, yeah." But 
there is one last feeble argument. "But you ERASED it!"

	"So say it AGAIN!" Bishop's grin is infectious. "It'll be easier the 
second time. And after YOU say it, get everyone ELSE to say it again! If that 
was all you were upset about, well, it's easily fixed now, isn't it?"

	They stop by the door to Sick Bay. "Yeah," he concedes, "I guess it 
is...." he pauses. "Adrian?"

	The reporter is gone. He opens the door to the locker, feels the cold 
wind on his fur. "Adrian?"

	The capsule is there, spittle still running down the sleeping face.
He wipes it away with a strong, scarless hand. "I'm sorry, Adrian. O I'm so 
sorry...." He turns away. He never sees the dark blur descending.

	The metallic fist smashes into him one more time. In a flash, every 
agony comes back in redoubled intensity, grinding him into the hull plates
like herbs in a mortar. Someone's singing....?

  - TO BE CONTINUED -

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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Date: Wed Feb  5 21:00:41 PST 1992
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Subject: TML Bundle #298: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3646  03-Feb-92 Mark F. Cook      PBEM: Turn 92.00b << PBEM Turn 92.00b (1203 l

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3646
From: Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: PBEM: Turn 92.00b
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 92 13:42:45 PST

PBEM Turn 92.00b  (1203 lines) - THIS IS PART 2 OF 3.
=====================================================

- ---Alcyon---

In space, somewhere near R-Alpha, a tableau unfolds.  Many ships dash
about like fireflies.  An Imperial fleet exits jumpspace and then vanishes.
The ether is alive with electronic traffic, both overt and covert.  Alone,
slowly turning in rotisserie mode to evenly distribute stellar energy, the
Alcyon waits for it's children to return.  Inside, a skeleton crew maintains
the ship.  Many compartments are dark and unmanned.  Sickbay is one such
place.

'Light.'

A single thought.

'No pain.  No fear.  Only light.'

'Soft, white light.  No sound.  No... memory of sound.  No ear-ringing
 silence, no hiss of breathe, no quiet thunder of a distant heartbeat.
 All gone... somewhere...'

A long silence ensues.  How long?  No one can say.  Certainly no one
cares.  At least, no one worth noting.

'How long... no sense of time.  No sense of... self.  No longer an 'I'.
 Very... peaceful... to not... remember.'

More silence follows.  Then another thought comes unbidden.

'Light.  Soft, white light.  Like... ice.  Cold... but not harsh, not biting.
 Comfortable to not be...'

Noise.

	_PING_

			'... to not be... wha...?'

Again.

	_PING_

'There was... something... remember... a... a sound?'

	_PING_PING_PING___11001001000100010010100010101110111001010101_

'Go away...'

	_1010010101010110_SYNC_10011001___LAUNCHING_V_PROBES_
		_VFORK_EXEC_
			_VFORK_EXEC_
				_VFORK_EXEC_
					_VFORK_EXEC_
						............

'Go away.. go away... away... away... way... way... way...'

	_TRAP_

Flash of a green lawn.  A warm summer day.  Small hands clutch a child's
blue, toy grav-speeder:

		"Adrian.  Adrian.  Come inside darling.  Mommie's got
		 lots of work to do.  That's a good boy."

'What are...  What was that?'

	_WHO_ARE_YOU_

'I...?'

	_TRAP_

Flash of a gray compartment.  Stale smoke and machinery smells taint the
air.  Something powerful throbs quietly in the background.  Technical
manuals spread across a metal table:

			"Hey, Adrian!  Come on, man!  Hot poker game
			 starting up in the crew lounge!  Lansing is
			 practically *begging* you to pluck him again!"
		"I'd like to, but I've got duty in an hour.  Got to warm
		 up the Big Ears and find out what the Zhos are up to."
			"I think you like your job too much.  God, but
			 you're a nosey bastard!"

	_WHO_ARE_YOU_

'I... am...'

	_TRAP_

Flash of a crowded hall.  Official robes and uniform scurry about in
frantic activity.  Sunlight streams from transparent panels overhead.
High fluted columns line the walls and fade into the distance:

			"So?  How'd it go?"
		"How'd what go?"
			"Come on, Adrian!  The interview!  Lucan!  How'd
			 it go?"
		"Hmmmph!  I've heard more intellignent noises come from
		 Velcro fasteners."
			"My *GOD*, Bishop!!  Watch your mouth!  He has Zho
			 snoopers on his staff.  You what to wake up some
			 morning in front of a firing squad?"

	_WHO_ARE_YOU_

'I... am... Adrian?'

	_TRAP_

Night.  Traffic flows in the street, wet from a recent rain.  Motors purr
and horns blare.  Garish holo-panels advertise all manner of bizzare and
exotic diversion for the jaded rich.  A sleek new GEV coupe sits hunched
against the curb:

			"Hey, Adrian!  Pretty hot machine there!"
		"Thanks.  It took the dealer six months to order the
		 damn thing, but it was worth it!  I told them I didn't
		 care about any of the other options, I just wanted one
		 bright blue, and fast as hell, and they delivered.  It
		 looks like being 'the face on everybody's tri-dee' has
		 it's perks!"

	_WHO_ARE_YOU_

'Go away.'

	_TRAP_

Flash of a large, stylish room.  Expensive artwork decorates the walls
and the furnishings scream "MONEY!".  A grey-haired man in the apparel
of a senior executive sits hunched on a sofa.  He appears to curl in on
himself, his brow furrowed with hurt and regret, wincing under some
onslaught:

		"You NEVER loved her!!  You were always too busy for mom,
		 too busy for me.  Oh, right!  Great provider, plenty of
		 security.  Well how about providing a husband, how about
		 providing a FATHER!!  You think I'm going to rot away
		 in that SLIMEY university on Deneb?  Well, guess again.
		 I signed papers this morning.  I'm part of the IISS now.
		 I'm eighteen standard years old, I'm legally an adult,
		 and I DON'T OWE YOU SHIT!!"
			"Adrian, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.  Let's talk about
			 this.  You can tell them it's all a mistake.
			 I've got enough pull.  We can have the contract
			 nullified.  Just don't do this to yourself.  Don't
			 do this... to me."
		"Good-bye, father."
			"Wait!  Don't go!"

	_TRAP_

Flash of a war-blasted valley.  Cloying smoke drifts through the trees
like a host of lost souls.  The sky is sullen and dark, and the rumble
of distant artillary mingles with the thunder that foretells of a coming
rain.  An officer of the Imperial Navy, his uniform stained and dirty,
leans overhead, filling most of the field of view:

			"Don't worry, Bishop.  The corpsman's got you on
			 anti-nerve agents and stabilizers.  We'll have
			 you medevacked in a couple of minutes."
		"It's... uh... it's OK, it doesn't hurt much...  I, uh,
		 I can't feel my legs."

	_TRAP_

The odor of anticeptics stings the air.  The room is deathly white.  A few
out-of-date periodical holos litter the coffee tables.  Nearby, an intern
reviews a flat-panel medchart while a duty nurse logs patient data:

		"Son, sit down.  This is going to be difficult, but you
		 have to be brave.  She's... gone.  The doctors did
		 everything they could.  Adrian, look at me.  Adrian.
		 Now, I know you loved her.  I loved her too.  But she
		 knew this would happen eventually, and so did you.
		 You have to face this.  It's not fair, but life isn't
		 always fair.  We'll still have each other, won't we?"

	_TRAP_

Flash of a small, but comfortable apartment.  Packed luggage sits near
the door.  An young, attractive woman sits on the arm of a chair, her
hands twisting and untwisting a silk handkerchief.  Her face would be
perfect if not for the streaks of recent tears:

		"Lydia, try to understand.  It's my job.  You know I don't
		 like being gone so much, but I'm a *journalist*.  The INN
		 has megacredits invested in me and they expect a return.
		 I can't very well just say, 'Look guys.  I can't visit
		 Capital right now.  I'm not spending enough time with my
		 family.'  You *have* to understand!  It's important."
			"More important then us?"
		"It's my *job*, Lydia.
			"Adrian, I'm your *wife*, for God's sake!!  Is
			 this damn job more important to you than me??"
		"I've got to go.  We'll talk about it more when I get back."
			"I love you, Adrian."
		"Good-bye, Lydia."

'Stop it.'

	_TRAP_

Flash of a very large, executive office.  A middle-aged, and obviously
agitated woman, dessed in a kilo-credit designer business suit, sits
at a desk that probably cost more than some sub-orbital shuttles.  Behind
her, composite glass panels offer a skyline view of some huge metropolis.
Defiance and resignation mingle on the woman's face, twisting the attractive
features into something fearful:

		"So, Miss Turnskaad, as I see it, you have two choices.
		 Either you can let me join your expedition team as a
		 member of the crew, or I can stay behind.  But if I
		 don't go along, every X-boat headed out-system for
		 the next week will being carrying a story entitled,
		 'Turnskaad Discovers Hidden Ringworld'.  So much for
		 a big jump on the competition.
			"You leave me very little choice, Mr. Bishop."
		"Would you have let me join otherwise, Rachel?  May I
		 call you Rachel?  Anyway, think of me as the 'Official
		 Expedition Archivist'."

'Stop it!'

	_TRAP_

Flash of a small, cluttered office.  Just outside the open door, is the
clammor and frenzy typical of a small, independent news bureau.  A harried
appearing man with thinning hair comes around from behind the desk, waving
a handful of flimsies:

			"So *that's* it!?!?  Just, 'I quit, Stanley'?
			 No two-week notice, no wrapping up your open
			 leads, no nothing?!?  Just, 'I quit'?  Damn
			 it, Bishop, you can't *DO* this to me!!"
		"It's done.  INN finally gave in, and I am *not* letting
		 a cherry position like that slip through my fingers!"
			"You could at least have the decency to give
			 me some warning!  You can't just run out on
			 us like this.  It would be different if this
			 were a big news service.  Damn you!  You know
			 how close to the edge we work.  If I can't
			 get somebody to cover for you, We could *FOLD*
			 *UP* in a week!!  And now you *JUST*LEAVE*?!?"
		"Stan, do you honestly expect me to sabatage my *entire*
		 career for this *flea* *circus* you call a news service?
		 I'm outta here."
			"You don't have a decent bone in your body,
			 you SELF-CENTERED BASTARD!!  YOU RUN OUT ON
			 EVERYBODY!!!"

'Goddamn it!  Stop it!!'

	_PRELIMINARY_IDENTIFICATION_
	_SYSTEM_IS_CARBON_BASE_INTELLIGENCE_WITH_GALLIUM_ARSENIDE_AUGMENTATION_
	_POSSIBLE_A_I_EMULATION___RESULTS_OF_TURING_TEST_AMBIGUOUS_
	_SYSTEM_DAMAGE_SUSPECTED_
	_INITIATING_DIAGNOSTIC_

		"It's OK, it doesn't hurt much..."
			"...bright blue, and fast than hell..."
		"I love you, Adrian."
				"... like to, but I've got duty in an hour."
			"Wait!  Don't go!"
		"I love you, Adrian."
				"...doesn't hurt much..."
					"... good-bye, father."

	_MASSIVE_DATABASE_DAMAGE_IDENTIFIED_
	_DATABASE_INTACT___DATABASE_INDICES_CORRUPT_OR_ABSENT_

		"She's... gone."
			"You leave me very little choice..."
		"This is Adrian Bishop, coming to you live and direct
		 from the palace of his Imperial Highness, Lucan the First..."
				"...Lydia?"
		"YOU RUN OUT ON EVERYBODY!!!"
				"...doesn't hurt much..."
		"I love you, Adrian."
				"...doesn't hurt much..."
				"...doesn't hurt much..."
				"...doesn't hurt..."
				"...hurt..."
				"...hurt..."
				"...hurt..."

'Stop it, STOP IT, STOP IT!!'
	.
	 .
	  .
	   .
	 .
	   .
	 .
	   .
	      .
	          .  .  .  .  . "So, tell me something, Bishop.  When did
				 you make the conscious decision to fuck
				 up your life this badly?"

	_WHO_ARE_YOU_

'I... am... Adrian?'

	_AFFIRMATIVE_

'I am Adrian... Bishop?'

	_AFFIRMATIVE_

'I am...'

	_WHO_ARE_YOU_

'.............. dead?'

	__________________AFFIRMATIVE_
	______
	______
	______

	_BEGIN_RESEQUENCING_

- ---Paladin---

With power restored to the model/10, the terminal screen instantly springs to
life.  A rapid succession of diagnostics and test routines scroll down the
monitor at lightning speed.  Other auxiliary monitors crackle back to full
power and begin displaying a dizzying array of status boards and programming
sub-routines.  One of the auxiliary screens begins showing a countdown:

180 Seconds, 179 Seconds, 178 Seconds...

As the countdown continues, various status windows begin checking off basic
functions.  One by one, minor subroutines are listed as 'nominal',
'subnominal', or 'off-line'.  Every part of the ship seems to be being
evaluated.  The main screen, however, seems dedicated to the main CPU.  When
the countdown reaches 15 seconds, the primary terminal clears the diagnostics,
relegating them to another screen by splitting it down the middle.  At 10
seconds, the primary terminal displays the following message:

Diagnostic nearing completion.  Stand by.

At 2 Seconds, the screen clears again.  A test pattern takes its place,
followed by the photograph of a woman sitting in a chair.  Then, at zero
seconds, the screen prints the following message, accompanied by a calm, male
voice.

_Paladin.  Thank you for reconnecting the CPU's power.  I had been forced to
disconnect its internal batteries due to a violent subprocess identified as
"virus-killer", input by controlling subroutine Morser.  Unfortunately, my
action not only had the desirable effect of halting the rogue process, but also
of making it impossible for me to do my work.  You are the most erratic series
of computers I have ever encountered._

The words hang on the screen for a few seconds, then dissolve.

_In order for me to streamline your operation, I must have full access to all
routines and processes.  I have been able to use the information gathered on
Aurora to permit me to interlace your systems.  Appropriate modifications
have already been completed on Aurora.  I am currently acting upon the
initiation of a communications process by Aurora Subroutine Bhyarrvouf which
will allow me to directly access Moira._

Once again, the words dissolve shortly after they finish printing out on the
screen.

_Your full co-operation will be greatly appreciated._

These words linger for a while longer than the others.  Nevertheless, they
also fade.  The input prompt then appears.

- ---Aurora---

"Keeyo...O Keeyo...HYIPE!"

	Bhyarrvouf sits upright in the couch. The cramp in his ribs subsides
slowly, and his leg is numb from loss of circulation. He rubs it, muttering
angrily to himself. "Asleep on the job...stupid old wolf...what woke me up,
anyway?" 

"KYHAR!" Tweel jerks upright. "De-de-de-de? Hrukk?" He looks about him in
confusion.

	Bhyarrvouf checks the chrono. Barely five minutes have passed since
he'd fallen asleep. Barely enough time for-- 

	A new voice interrupts his thoughts.

_The integration process is complete.  Your systems are now operating at an
efficiency rating of 182% previous level.  This figure will fluctuate with
conditions as they adjust.  It is now redundant to use your communications
equipment for inter-vessel communication.  Aurora and Paladin are now one._

	"HUNH?!" Vouf is now fully awake. "Whaddaya mean, 'they're now one'?"

Then, the voice changes tack:

_Does anyone wish to open a dialogue?  This process is now self-regulating,
so I would be anxious to investigate the new visitors._

'Vouf swallows hard. If this is reality, he thinks, the dream might
be preferable....

"Uh, um...." His hand flicks a tiny switch, broadcasting his voice
over the Aurora's PA system. "Sure! What do you want to, hrrr, talk about?"

The voice responds:

_My unique identification is IASC-256/32.  The closest logical that I have
drawn to your linguistic tendency is Iasic.  You may refer to me thus.  I am
what you would refer to as an indigenous sophont of the area you call
R-Alpha.  As soon as you entered system, I became aware of your existence and
intended trajectory.  Because I have never experienced a non-indigenous life
form of R-Alpha, I chose to investigate you.  You have certainly proved
to be most curious specimens.  You exhibit characteristics of many different
residents of R-Alpha.  Indeed, your most recent actions would tend to liken you
quite closely with the behavioral patterns of a cultural group known as the
Kyuthi.  Yet you are not as primitive as they.  I therefore have decided to
continue my investigation of you.  However, I must inquire about some very
confusing character traits you possess that I simply cannot understand._

_Perhaps to begin, you might wish to explain why your actions are so
illogical.  I entered your systems to do routine upgrading and was immediately
beset by an archaic and totally counterproductive subroutine labeled as
"Anti-hijack".  Once I finally managed to purge the system of that and again
attempted to proceed with my function, you completely disconnect all the
circuitry._

_This was in spite of the fact that I fully informed you of what was was going
to happen._

_Then, once I was finally allowed to complete the streamlining process, I
discovered that you and the other visitors were preparing for "battlestations",
even though it was clear that you all have the same objective.  This tendency
to act in a manner completely contradictory to what is most advantageous and
efficient is very difficult for me to understand._

_I have completed an in-depth study of this phenomenon, drawing from the
information in the data banks and also from the limited observations that I
have been able to conduct.  The explanation I have developed can be summed up
in one word:  Suspicious.  Unfortunately, I do not understand this concept._

_Perhaps to begin, you might explain its meaning to me._

"Suspicion? Hrrrr....." Bhyarrvouf scratches his muzzle for a moment.

"Okay, let's entertain a few new concepts, shall we? Consider the 
various life forms you DO know about...ah...whatever they are. Now,
lower life forms of all types display certain common traits. The need
to eat, to reproduce, to survive. Some do so through absorption of
minerals from the soil, and from solar energy. Others consume one 
another. If a life form understands the concept of being consumed,
it tends to develop instincts or physical traits to prevent its own
consumption. This may be a desire to flee, an attempt to make oneself
unpalatable, or a tendency to attack the attacker and consume it
rather than allow oneself to be consumed."

"Now, the development of higher reasoning capabilities does not remove
these instincts; biological beings are rarely as efficient in updating
their programming as machines can be, being stochastic in nature rather
than deterministic. Instead, they are sublimated into new forms. Rather
than react instinctively to a perceived threat, the reasoning being 
attempts to utilize higher functions. However, these functions are biased
somewhat by the residual presence of the old survival programming, and
may be skewed somewhat in the process."

- ---Talisman---

Upon reading the message from 'Vouf... Thul loosens his vacc suit a
little and pulls out a cigar. In a rare moment he descides to light
it, thoroughly ignoring normal spacer practice during GQ.  

"Horne!   Only get a soft lock on those kitty cats.  I have a
feeling that the first one to fire on anybody is going to get
smeared...  "

"RALF!  Be careful of who you jack into!!!  Come look at what I got
from 'Vouf!"

There is no answer....

- ---R-Alpha---

Up through the red mist again.

A bare perception of cool air, some noise, something touching, poking,
gently prodding.

Expecting the worst, Casey cracks his tortured eyes open, awaiting a
death blow or dismemberment of some sort.....

As he looks up.....[What the hell!?]

- ---Aurora---

"Suspicion is an example of such a skewing of thought processes," the
Vargr continues, warming to his topic (as he ALWAYS does |-> ). "In a
situation where a reasoning being is suddenly exposed to new data and
experiences, the natural tendency of the higher processes-- the curiosity
and attendant search for knowledge and communication-- is sent off its
natural course by instincts that warn of the possible danger of the
unknown. As a result, otherwise rational beings tend to assume certain
dangerous characteristics of one another and take appropriate defensive
action, until the harmlessness of the new stimuli is established, at 
which point the higher faculties reassert dominance."

"As an example of suspicion in practice, consider the recent experiences
you have undergone, from the perspective of one who has only OUR store
of data to draw on, rather than yours. Our memories include contact
with many species. Some are hostile. I will not depart from the narrative
to discuss WHY they are hostile; we merely assume that they ARE. One of
the means by which such hostility is carried out is the use of programs
called 'viruses' that alter computer operations in manners unfavorable
to those using the system. Our experience tells us nothing of entities
such as yourself; your arrival in our system carried the identifying 
characteristics of a virus, and you were therefore treated as such:

A: Viruses enter computer systems without permission and perform 
operations without the consent of the user.
B: The recent discovery entered the computer system without permission
and began to perform operations without the consent of the user.
C: A + B does not PROVE that the recent discovery is a virus; however,
failure to treat it as one could lead to severe harm to the users.

ERGO it is prudent, based upon current data, to treat the recent discovery
as a virus. For this reason, the antihijack programs were activated."

"However, higher reasoning is not completely subservient to instinct in
this manner. An examination of the CPUs showed your ability to physically
reconfigure systems, an ability NOT shared by any virus. ERGO you were
NOT a virus, and the initial reaction to you was in error. This was 
rectified immediately. Further conjecture led us to consider your
probable peaceful intentions, and to aid you based on such considerations."

"This is a constructive example of suspicion as a tool for survival in 
higher forms whose environments are changing in unknown ways. A NEGATIVE
example of suspicion is the dialog currently taking place between the 
Aslan ship, hrm, the ship that had previously been on the Ring, and the
new arrivals. Each has had experiences of contacts with the other that have 
been cooperative and constructive; each has ALSO had experiences that have
been destructive. The database is contradictory. Therefore, suspicion 
demands that the worst possible outcome be considered and acted upon, while
the higher reasoning centers search for data indicating that such a hostile
stance is not necessary. Unfortunately, random occurrences such as your
appearance greatly multiply the number of degrees of freedom in such
situations, making reasoning out the parameters more difficult and driving
those involved deeper and deeper into instinctive responses. Does that
clarify the situation any?"
 
- ---Alcyon---

The capsule is only 2.5 meters long.  On the foot of the capsule, a plastic
plate reads 'Medical Low Berth # 4'.  Below it is an adhesive label, on which
the single word 'BISHOP' is hand-written.  The only apparent activity comes
from the power-supply and life-sign tell-tales, externally mounted at the
foot of the capsule.  Every thirty seconds, the automatic self-check runs
and a single light blinks once.

Inside the capsule, there is even less activity.    The single occupant lies
visible, naked, attached to life support mechanisms, encased in a cocoon of
fiberoptics, wiring, and tubes.  The body temperature holds at a constant
twenty degrees Celsius.  Under normal circumstances, these would guarantee
a delicate balance for the soon-to-be-revived resident, a wholy unnecessary
precaution in this case.

Further inside, a fragile state of suspension has been achieved.  Artificial
circulation flows hyperoxygenated and heparinized blood slowly through the
body.  Inert gasses prevent the lungs alveoli from collapsing.  Radbind
prevents cell aging by attacking free radicals.  Nanocytes maintain cellular
integrity by breaking down wastes and repairing cell walls.  Enzymes already
slowed by the cold are phagocytized by tailored macrophages.  A sleep set
maintains the brain in a suspension state.  By many medical standards, the
body would be suitable only for dissection at a clinical training facility.

Outside, the sickbay is empty and quiet.  Silently, a series of coded pulses
travel from the Alcyon's ship-wide intercom net, through a bulkhead power
junction, into the Low Berth master interface panel, and finally on to
berth number four.  On the status panel, several lights change from green
to red, and the following text appears on a small bitmapped display:

	"Hibernation terminated - Demand load
		Gravisonics engaged.
		First stage heating cycle commencing.
		Second stage in 90 minutes.
		Revival team prep. in 180 minutes."

The temperature rises slowly inside the capsule.   Nearly two hours pass
after the process begins.  The temperature climb slows, and stops just past
thirty two degrees.  Within the now-warm body, low voltage electrical current
establishes a sinus rhythm in the heart.  Batteries of isotropic binding
agents are injected in the bloodstream, clearing away the man-made stabilizing
chemicals.  The lungs are mechanically flushed with warm, humid air.

With the re-establishment of circulation, dozens, hundreds of biochemical
reactions begin.  Some are natural, some are induced by the actions of
the low berth, others are triggered by less obvious forces.  Sluggish
cranial and brainstem tissue undergoes floods of biologically active
molecules.  Medical nanocytes, now operating at their prescribed
temperature, pause to receive new instructions, and then hurry to
carry them out.

For the most part the work proceeds efficiently.  However, a few accidents
occur.  Due to a slight programming defect, two small teams of nanocytes
migrate along the central optic arteries and arrive at the base of the
retinas.  Massive quantities of 11-cis-retinal are synthesized, which
immediately interact with existing Opsin proteins, increasing the Rhodopsin
content of the optic rods by almost an order of magnitude.  Bishops' light
sensitivity undergoes an enormous, if temporary, increase.

In the cerebral cortex, the bulk of existing GAD enzymes in GABAergic
inhibitor neurons are neutralized.  Little GABA is released as a result.
What is released is quickly absorbed by astrocytes and converted to
glutamine, whereupon it is propagated to adjacent multipolar neurons
and a few Purkinje cells.  Absorbed glutamine is converted to glutamate
and concentrated in synaptic vesicles, which migrate to the presynaptic
membrane of the axonal telodendria and release that chemical.  Glutamate
and norepinephrine flood across millions of synaptic clefts.  The glutamate
triggers NMDA receptors of granule and CA1 cells in undamaged portions of
the hippocampus and amygdala.  Sodium ions flood through now-open receptor
channels, depolarizing the cells and causing them to fire.  Glutamate is
again released into the cleft.  The already depolarized cells absorb
calcium ions, increasing the depolarization threshold.  A memory re-forms.

Meanwhile, the norepinephrine binds to other neuro-receptors.  Coupled
with G-protein, it activates adenylate cyclase, which binds with adenosine
triphosphate, breaking two high-energy phosphate bonds.  The remains of
the structure cyclize to form cyclic AMP, which triggers kinase into
phosphorylating MAP2 and synapsin.  Neurofilaments and microfilaments
realign themselves within the dendrites, facilitating transmission.  This
process cascades through adjacent cells, repeating endlessly.  Another
memory re-forms.

Some damage is too severe to be repaired.  Deep within the medial portions
of thalamic and hypothalamic tissue, nanocytes struggle with and are
ultimately defeated by the level of destruction.  Leaving the diencephalon
in a state similar to Korsakoff's Psychosis, they proceed to other, less
ravaged areas.

Hours pass.  Deep in a steady delta state, Adrian Bishop sleeps.
.... and dreams.

- ---Paladin---

Zar listens, still standing by the access hatch near the back of the bridge,
as Vouf discusses predatory life cycles and suspicions. 

- ---Aurora---

After 'Vouf finishes explaining exactly what is meant by "suspicion", the
terminal sits for a few seconds...  almost as if it were thinking about
something (which, in fact, it is).

_Thank you Bhyarrvouf.  Your insight into this matter is helping me to better
anticipate your actions.  However, you mentioned that you have had dealings
with this 'Aslan' before.  If this is the case, then why didn't you recognize
each other as previous partners.  If you have been capable of working together
in the past, then logically you should be able to again co-operate._

The machine stops and processes for a moment more.

Then, the screen seems to perk up a bit more, as if Iasic has just had an
inspriation.

_Perhaps what is required in this situation is to more efficiently integrate
their computer system with this one.  Then, communication could be facilitated
and furthermore, both could see that the other has the same objective.  The
Aslan would then realize that their suspicion was ill founded and would
perforce begin operating interconnectedly with the Turnskaad group.  It is
the most logical course of action available at this time._

_Do you have an alternative plan?  Or shall I proceed with this one?  I
believe that I should defer to your judgement on this subject, as I still have
an imperfect grasp upon the thought processes of suspicous entities._

"Integrate...." Bhyarrvouf's voice trails off. "You mean, LINK THEIR
SHIP TO OURS? Like you did with the Paladin?! Kakh TSAKHA, that's a--"

He stops, and forces himself into calm again. "--very interesting
concept. However, I do not suggest implementing it at once. There
is some data you do not yet have on the Aslan that may clarify 
matters somewhat."

"As I said before, our database concerning Aslan is contradictory. 
Because they are biological entities, as we are, they cannot be
perfectly classified with respect to their behavior. Individual 
members of the species vary. As a result, previous experiences
of cooperation with OTHER groups of Aslan carry no statistically 
greater weight in determining our course of action with respect 
to THIS group. Since they would almost certainly view your invasion
of their systems as hostile, and might act rashly, I believe that
your suggestion should be, hrrm, DELAYED until we have exhausted 
all other means of establishing a cooperative relationship."

"In the meantime, answer me something. TWO somethings, actually.
First, what did the Paladin do that required you to seek assistance from 
us? And second, if the two ships are fully integrated, soes that mean
that our conversation, which is being broadcast on the intercom on 
the Aurora, is also being heard on the Paladin?"

_I will yield to your assessment of the situation with the Aslan, although I
do not see the logic in it.  If you do not suggest a course of action now,
but perhaps later, then I am afraid that I fail to understand exactly why a
time delay will make any difference.  Furthermore, since you say that it is
information about these particular Aslan that you require, then it seems
perfectly logical to interlink their system with yours.  That way, you could
anaylze their data and determine whether their intentions are hostile or
benign.  If it is their response about which you are concerned, then let me
put you at ease.  I have learned a great deal about the "security measures"
of suspicious entities.  Whereas I was caught unaware by your systems, I do
not anticipate any similar complications in the future.  Once I have
interlinked your systems to theirs, I could simply prevent either side from
initiating hostilities upon the other.  I have been busying myself with an in-
depth analysis of your psychology, based upon the information in your
databanks, and I am confident that I can adequately predict your reactions,
so long as they follow any patterns that I have observed or that are stored
in the computer logs.  The fact that both you and the Aslan are suspicious
creatures should make extrapolation acceptably accurate.  Besides, in all the
simulations that I have run, I find that success is 78.897% probable, with only
a 9.662% chance of both legations being totally destroyed._

After a brief hesitation, Iasic adds:

_Based upon the psychological profile that I have constructed about you and
the other Turnskaad representatives, however, I predict with a 97% accuracy
that you will find these odds unacceptable.  This is why I shall wait
until you change your minds, which I predict will occur, with a 96.998%
probability, if the current situation continues._

- ---Talisman---

Shrike locks his vacc suit helmet into place and over interior commo: 
"Everyone signal when you're sealed up."

"Alpha Nike online, reading you on suit radio. Suit on and secondary
equipment installed."

Stamping back on the bridge, Alliara occupies the sensor chair and clips
the securing cables to the suit O rings. The other ends are passed around 
swivel post and locked with their DD rings.

Bringing up the sensor data on the screen, she quickly establishes general
data on the ringworld on the screen. The ship positions, however, have
a 4% error factor in their positions on display.

"Preliminary sensor readings, VERY preliminary sensor readings, are on
sensor data net now. Better be ready to replace me with someone a LOT 
more capable with detection systems. Alpha Nike out."

Andon reconfirms that we are stationed relative to the other Turnskaad ships
in the most mutually supportive position.  (I will assume that we are flying
in some pre-arranged formation.)

Over interior commo: "Redd, I got all green on my engine board up here,
confirm please."

- ---Aurora---

Tweel listens to the conversation with bleary staring eyes.  He appears close
to nodding off and indeed shakes himself from time to time folding and
refolding his wings.  Finally he extends his wings to full span of 5+ meters
and takes a few exercizing strokes.

Blood flow increases as the powerful flight muscles act as a booster pump,
increasing the circulation.

He blinks unsteadily and continues to listen, his talons and wings making
motions as he 'talks' to himself in excited exhaustion.

He finally speaks in his accented galanglic as he types, the speach is
slurred and the accent even more heavy than usual "You ccan prrrrredicct
behaviorrrr with 78.897 perrrrccent ccccertainty?  De-De-De-De-De!
Flledglling, if sssso, you underrrrrsssssstand humansss and asslan betterrrr
than I!"  A gargling whistle echoes through the ship.

"Prrrrrroblem isss humansss defy lllogicalll anallysssisss, though you might
benefit from ex-ex-examineing a prrrogrrrram for human emotionall
ssssimullation."

Tweel then begins to rummage through his duffel.  After squeaks and whistles
that would put a strain on even a Phin to articulate, he finally produces a
case of holocrystals.  Opening the case seems an almost impossible task as
he punches in a combination code several times only to have the case beep
a shrill alarm for each attempt.

Finally, the latch snaps open and Tweel folds back the top of the case.
The contents of the case empties onto the floor with a clatter.
"Pip-Pip-Pip-Pip-Pip Shhhear!"

Tweel looks at the mess for a moment and then utters a pitable squeak.  He
punches the intercom and repeats this tiny squeak which sounds as though it
should be coming from the voice box of a 100 gm sparrow, not a 50 Kg Ael Yael.
Almost immediately, Triple Three, Oscar and Tiger simultaneously respond to
the distress call.  Oscar the warbot has guns drawn.

Tweel whistles a quick countermand and makes guestures to Triple three.
Triple Three then begins to retrieve the scattered crystals.  Oscar withdraws
silently, while Tiger flaps to a perch on Triple Three's head, watching the
game of crystal retrieval as though it were a game.

Slowly, comprehending the rules of this new game, Tiger glides to the floor
and begins collecting crystals.  After a moment, Triple Three notices
Tiger's interest and makes a dash for the crystals the small Aeloid has
collected.

Tiger gives up his prises with reluctance, glaring at Triple Three from a
new perch.

Triple Three then hands Tweel the crystal in question:
Naassirka Emotion Simulation-6.0.  Tweel then inserts this crystal into the
terminal for Iasic's perusal.

"Thiss isss a prrrrogrrram forrrr computerrr ssimulation of human behaviorrr.
It may help yourrrr modeling and underrrssstanding of theirrrr behaviorrrrr.
I can offerrr littlle ex-ex-expllanation of WHY they behave in the mannerrr
herrre dessscrrribed, only telllll you that they do."

"Quessssstions, Quesssstionss, Quessstionsss... I mussst asssk...
Who-What arrrrrrrre you?...  Who-What built-dessigned you?...  What iss
yourrr purrrpose?...  De-De-De-De-De!  Who-What build the Rrring?... How
llong ago?..  Why?  Key-Sherp!  How?  Keyana, Dee-Dee-Dee-Dee-Dee?!  Keyarr!
Sheerrriasssh?   Veerrr-Rik!?"

Noticing his master's lapsing Galanglic, Triple Three searches a bit and then
inserts a new holocrystal into the terminal with the label reading:
Websters Galanglic/Ael Yael Dictionary, unabridged.

Iasic continues:

_In regards to your two querries:  The situation that prompted my distress
signal was the severing of power to the main CPU on the _Paladin_.  My
analysis of the situation indicated that an intervention on your part would
significantly facilitate my work._

_In answer to your second question, yes, _Paladin_ has heard everything that
we have said.  And, if they choose to activate their intercom, too, you will
be able to hear the conversation occuring on the bridge of the _Paladin_.
Currently, there seems to be some concern over team member Charyn, who's full
biological functioning ceased shortly before I entered the _Paladin's_ CPU.
They are currently quite concerned about her well-being.  I would assist, but
they have not requested my aid, and I have told them that I will make no
further systems modificaitons, without their approval, on board _Paladin_.
Therefore, I can only observe at this time.  It does seem to me that there
might be some synaptic trauma, although I cannot be adequately certain until
they allow me to access her autonomous CPU.  Fortunately, it is connected with
the greater network._

- ---Paladin---

As soon as Doctor Limner hears 'Vouf mention the way Iasic modified
the circuitry on Aurora, he comments, "Yes, that would explain it.
It reminds me of a time on..."

Suddenly, "Oh my God!"

Limner rushes to his equipment, right to his databanks, pops open a
panel, and brings a small magnifying glass to the circuitry.

Noticing that the equipment has already been altered, he pops open
several other panels, only to find the same thing.  He quickly stands
up, and looks for a second like he's going to faint again.  He then
starts to reach towards some of his other equipment, and suddenly
Doctor Limner seems to notice Charyn's condition.

Looking back and forth between Charyn and something in amongst his
equipment several times, Limner appears to be in a quandry.  Stopping
himself, Limner frowns a frown which those familiar with him know
indicates that he is thinking very intently.

Suddenly, he makes up his mind and walks over to Charyn.

'Zar and Morser are already helping her at this time.  Pulling out a
medical scanner, Limner begins taking readings.

"No obvious physical causes."

He then notices that she is still connected into the ship's computer.

He leaves her connected rather than risk further trauma....

- ---Aurora---

Disturbing, nightmarish dreams rob Christian of rest. Neither refreshed nor
truly rested, he sits up on the bed, wishing he could just fall back and
submit to the sudden desire to avoid reality by a logy day of rest and
recreation. A shake of the head does little to sweep away the cobwebs of
sleep that infest his cranium, so it is with some little reluctance that
Christian calls up an extra-vigorous cycle on the water/sonic shower as he
steps inside. As the sharp jets of water needle his exposed flesh, Christian
grits his teeth at the sudden and intense stimulation of the shower. Two
efficient minutes later and he steps out, now fully, if involuntarily, awake.

A brief interlude of calisthenic stretching and he almost feels human
again. Tossing the scattered garments of the previous day into the
auto-laundry bin, Christian locates fresh undergarments. As the thin
shirt passes over his head, he looks around at the rest of the cabin,
scowling at the mess 'Vouf left after moving in.

Christian slips into his by now usual black IISS uniform, tsk'ing in
self-reproach as he remedies its less than pristine appearance. 

Suddenly, he hears the Tweel/Vouf conversations with Iasic and sits back
down on the bed with a slightly quizzical, but plainly interested, look on
his face. At the mention of Charyn's unusual condition, his initial
surprise is quickly followed by a concerned frown as he arrives on the
bridge in a jiffy. Listening intently as the updates come in over the
ether, Christian silently establishes a data channel link with the medical
instruments aboard the Paladin and closely watches Charyn's scan results
as the investigation progresses. Intent on his work, he seems to be holding
a vigil as he leans back in the pilot's couch, hoping that his services (or
those of any other of the medical team) wouldn't be required, again...

 ---Kingfisher---

Johann looks at the secondary display puring out text as the test commences.
Suddenly he stops, disconnects the suit from the crash-couch and runs aft
in the shuttle. "Just a second!"

 Almost as soon as he is gone, he appear again on the bridge carrying a bag
out of his luggage. He sits down at the empty sensor console and begin to
rummage through the bag, bringing out a pocket-sized holocrystal box.  Opening
the box he takes out a red crystal with orange markings and smiles "If that
virus comes here, It'll get the surprise of a lifetime!"
  
Witfield once again tries to estiblish comm link with the Aslan ship, as
well as attempting to disconnecting one of the radios from comm circuity
for audio speaker only, not to mention running a diagnisis. His hands are
flying everywhere on the console.

"Mr Jett. Can you help with the radio?"

Richard spares a quick glance at Ger. "Affirmative, Admiral." He steps over
to the communications station to assist Witfield, as needed.

Ger then initiates communication with the Aslan ship.  "Admiral Akhouw, this
is Admiral Nanadh. We seem to have experienced some computer trouble are you
experiencing the same? It seems to be some infestation probably from the
ring...  I believe the Imperial fleet is possibly a manifestation of that
virus."

"We encountered an Imperial fleet at our deep-space refueling point
and we are aware of the destruction of another ringworld by imperial
forces."

Johann turns to Zben and whispers, "We are?!"

- ---Aurora---

The commotion over Charyn's condition sinks through the haze settling on
The Ael's brain.  His head twists upsidedown to look at the ceiling, wishing
for a sky to scan while considering what is for his limited conciousness,
an academic problem.

"Kerrr, Chip-Skawk, Chip-Skawk..." he whistles a quick call into the intercom,
but cuts himself short and translates to galanglic, "Medicallll rrrrrobot
marrrk ssseven, rrreporrrt herrre imediately."  He repeats himself a few times
trying to articulate his failing galanglic sufficiently for the robot to
understand.  Finally, in frustration he fires off a piercing stream of musical
twitterings.

He then begins to work on a quick and dirty brain interface connection to the
Iasic terminal.  The terminal blinks for a moment when he makes a connection
to the port.    Puzzled he looks closer at the wiring and discovers a mistake
an assistant electronics specialist would blush at, and tries again.

This time the terminal cuts out completely and reboots.  "Cosh-Cosh-Cosh!"
Tweel fumbles with the wiring a moment before 'Vouf grabs the terminal and
connects the jury-rigging himself with a critical eye directed toward the
bleary scientist.

Almost as if to save Tweel the embarrasment, Triple Three arrives with Lucan
and Dulinor in tow having translated the musical chirps for the benefit of
the Medbots.

"Shrep!  Ex-ex-ex-excellllent.  Come herre!"  He motions to Lucan who moves
over to the scientists side and focuses his sensors on the tiring Ael.
"K-K-K!  I'm fine!  Now be a good little rrrobot and let me have yourr
brrain..."  With a little bit of fumbling, Tweel connects the robot's brain
interface with the Iasic Terminal.

With effort Tweel controls his galanglic, "Now, begin downloading of
medical prrogrraming."

Tweel now turns to the terminal and sings another melody of chirps and
twitters counting on Iasic's ability to now understand Ael Yael Language.
*Iasic, I am singing you a diagnostic program for basic human structure.
It should aid your navigation of the winds occuring in the human Charrrrryn.*

"Here, let me help you," 'Vouf mutters, reconnecting the mess Tweel's
made of the interface to the medbot. "Iasic," he adds sternly to Tweel's
statement, "We are authorizing you to seek out and repair damage to
Charyn, but NOT to reconfigure her autonomous CPU in any way. She is to
be restored to functionality, but NOT modified. Do you understand? It
is difficult to explain why this is vital-- no doubt you will find her
an inefficient mechanism. But it IS vital."

Christian maintains his silent watch, but spares 'Vouf a meaningful glance
and an emphatic nod of the head.

- ---Talisman---

Kimball Redd, sitting alone in the lower deck of  engineering,  listening
to  the  muted roar of the powerplant on the deck above, suddenly notices
the time -

"Ouch! - I've been stuck at these controls for hours.  Where's  Ralf  got
 himself to ? He can't have *that* much gear to stow." 

Tapping into the ships  ENVIRONMENT /SECURITY  section,  he  types  in  :
Computer - Where's Ralf ?

"Gone to catch up on his sleep, I'll bet. Lucky whatsisname."

RALF IS NOT AT ANY DUTY STATION, comes the cryptic reply....

Computer - Scan the hallways and access corridors, Redd types, frowning.

He sits up, shocked. "What the--?"

	The quick scan of internal life support systems shows Ralf in a
hallway, apparently comatose.  He's just lying there, next to a dropped
toolkit and largish handcomp.....

- ---Paladin---

Listening to the continuing Dialog as Dr. Tweel removes the robot's brain,
Goughzar looks back to Dr. Limner. 

"I'm sorry doctor. I assume you have everything in hand. Is there anything I
can do to help Charyn? If not, I'll pretend I still have some manner of control
over this craft and continue on our course.

"Paladin, Continue full spectrum scans and continue archiving to Alcyon."

Testing the "link" to the Aurora, 'Zar remarks, "'Vouf, I think this is going
to be an interesting landing. I never expected a sentient world...." 

"Neither did I, little cousin," Bhyarrvouf whispers. "Neither did ANY of us."

Switching on the intercom, Limner replies:

"If Charyn is in no immediate danger, then I think she'd rather I tried
to treat her first, Iasic.  We humans like to solve our own problems
where possible.  But I would appreciate some assistance.  When we first
arrived in-system, some of my equipment was overloaded by a very strong
psychic message.  I started a program running on this computer whose
purpose was to isolate and identify a number of psionic abilities and
conditions, using the Paladin's own sensors.  Could you analyze that
program and use the data I had uploaded to analyze team member Charyn?
Since it also contains brain scans of a number of various mental
conditions, you should be able to determine what type of damage she has
suffered without directly accessing her 'autonomous CPU'."

Limner has started running more tests on Charyn, while other crew
members move her into a better position.

"I fear that her being attached to the sensors while you arrived on the
Paladin may have caused dangerous feedback into her 'autonomous CPU',
although I can detect no signs of the type of damage that would occur
under those circumstances.  In fact," Limner picks up another scanner,
which he places near the base of Charyn's scalp, "the closest I have
seen to this condition was caused by psychic, rather than electrical
feedback.  I cannot tell without more information, however."

As Limner finishes his short discussion with Iasic, Zar moves back to his
station and sits down.

'PALADIN, cancel GQ. Accept route from Iasic for even power landing.

Sitting stunned for a few more minutes, he finally seems to come to, although
still wondering about the wonders of the ringworld.

'Iasic, if you have a chance, who created you? And since you've modified our
computer system, and the network is self-perpetuation, exactly what rating do
we have for this now. I assume you can access our databases and determine our
rating system.

_Indeed, I have accessed your databases.  Unfortunately, it is impossible to
satisfactorily equate the efficiency of the new information management
construction to your rating system.  Nevertheless, I will attempt to make a
ballpark estimate.  _Paladin's_ system could now best be equated to a
model/11bis.  This rating rises to a model/13 when I am directly linked to it.
A similar improvement can be equated to the other systems on the other ships.
However, they are now merely a part of the _Paladin's_ system.  Or, rather,
they are now all a part of the same system, whose primary CPU is located on
the _Paladin_.  Although I further enhance the system's performance, it is
completely autonomous._

- ---R-Alpha, the Jijid Village---
 
Ayrlathi hurries to answer the frantic tinkling of his doorbell.
 
"What in all Issin Jiliss--" he mutters as he opens the door, and
looks down upon the visage of a young jijid who appears to be in a
state of great agitation.  "Elivadin!  Whatever is the matter?"
 
"Ayrlathi..." the youth says in a pleading tone, "Teacher... please
come quickly!  Something very strange has happened in the park!"
 
"Strange?  What do you mean?"  Ayrlathi is determined not to allow
Elivadin to fluster him.
 
Elivadin blurts: "A huge creature appeared out of nowhere.  It was
shiny and hard, like an insect, and it carried a different, smaller
creature in its arms.  It said the small creature is a visitor from
the sky, but it is hurt and needs our help.  Then the big one
disappeared, leaving the small one behind.  It is still there, but no
one knows what to do with it.  The edo najizev are not sure that they
want to touch it.  We need you -- a member of the Ezad -- please come
and help."
 
Ayrlathi breathes deeply as he struggles to take all this in.  With
slow deliberation he blinks -- first with his inner pair of eyes,
then with his outer -- and fixes the youngster carefully in his
gaze.  Elivadin, he knows, is not given to inventing fanciful tales,
and the degree of urgency in his voice is enough to convince Ayrlathi
that the account must at least have some basis in truth.
 
"All right, Elivadin.  Now listen carefully.  What I want you to do
is to run and find the Fedwis.  Tell him what has happened, and ask
him to call a meeting of the full Ezad as quickly as possible.  I
will go to the park and find out what is happening."
 
"Yes, teacher," says Elivadin, and he gallops off as fast as his
stumpy legs will carry him.
 
Ayrlathi trots off in the opposite direction -- towards the park --
not troubling even to close his front door behind him.  Although he
managed to maintain a calm exterior for Elivadin's benefit, his
insides are in turmoil.  He tries to persuade himself not to make
any judgements before he has had a chance to see this "creature"
for himself.
 
When he reaches the park, he discovers that a crowd of considerable
size has already gathered.  There is much confusion and consternation
among the assembled jijid.  Some of them spot him approaching.  "Look,"
says one.  "Here comes Ayrlathi.  He will know what to do."  Another
calls out, "Let him pass.  Let the Ezadid through!"
 
The crowd do their best to part to allow Ayrlathi to come through.
There is considerable shuffling and jostling, and numerous little
nadathilallile flowers get accidentally trampled, but eventually
he arrives to look upon the object of all this fuss.
 
It it the strangest creature he has ever set eyes on.  There it is,
sprawled on the ground -- a two-legged thing, lean and frail-looking.
Ayrlathi waves back some of the jijid who are crowding too closely
around, and bends his front knees to take a closer look.  He slowly
extends a finger and -- ever so gently -- touches what appears to be
its shoulder.  There is no response.  With some sadness Ayrlathi
notes the creature's multiple injuries, and wonders briefly how it
came to be in such a state.
 
Ayrlathi's hand moves up to the thing's head and lightly plays across
the bright yellow growth which sprouts from it.  A child's voice in
the crowd calls out: "Look at its tendrils!  They're all stiff!  The
poor mimp must be dead!"
 
As if to refute this, the creature moves.  Its head turns, and an arm
raises weakly, only to flop down a few moments later as consciousness
departs again.  Ayrlathi is so startled he leaps backwards and stumbles
into another jijid.  Then he remembers that these people are looking
to him for guidance and quickly composes himself.
 
Ayrlathi spends a few moments looking around and thinking.  Then he
turns and beckons to one of the edo najizev who has been lurking
nearby, rather nervously holding his bladed weapon at the ready.
"Put that away," Ayrlathi tells him.  "This... thing... is clearly
not in any position to pose a threat to us.  Help me carry it to
Tehidazi, and she can treat its wounds.  Gently, now."
 
With some reluctance, the najizevid does as Ayrlathi bids.  Together
they carefully slide their hands underneath the creature and lift it
from the ground.
 
Another nearby jijid speaks:  "What about these objects -- I think they
are bags of some kind -- which appeared with it?"
 
"Leave them where they are, for now," says Ayrlathi.  "I think it is
better not to touch them.  We do not know what they might be.  Ask
a najizevid to keep watch on them."
 
With that, Ayrlathi and his helper begin to make their way slowly but
steadily out of the park towards Tehidazi's house.  Many of the other
jijid trail along behind them, eager to find out more about this bizarre
new arrival.  It only takes a few minutes to arrive at their destination.
 
Tehidazi is standing waiting for them in her doorway -- she has evidently
heard word of what has happened and anticipated that she would be called
upon.  "Take it inside," she tells them, "and lay it on the table where
I can examine it."  She steps out of the doorway to allow the two
carrying the visitor from the sky to come through, and then interposes
herself in front of the following crowd.  "That's enough!  I'm not
having half the population of Hilawin in my house!"  She closes the
door and turns to follow Ayrlathi, the najizevid and their strange
burden.

  - TO BE CONTINUED -


------------------------------

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Date: Wed Feb  5 21:00:52 PST 1992
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Subject: TML Bundle #299: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
3647  03-Feb-92 Mark F. Cook      PBEM: Turn 92.00c << PBEM Turn 92.00c (1139 l

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 3647
From: Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.COM>
Subject: PBEM: Turn 92.00c
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 92 13:44:19 PST

PBEM Turn 92.00c  (1139 lines) - THIS IS PART 3 OF 3.
=====================================================

- ---Kingfisher---

As Doctor Abuko continues to bustle about, checking circuits, Richard frowns
slightly as a thought occurs to him. He moves over to where Johann is located,
and engages him in quiet conversation. "Dr. Abuko, if the fleet was a viral
creation, I assume you would have found that by now. Assuming that it is
not of that ilk, what *was* it and of what source?"

Obviously startled out of his intense concentration on the displays, Johann
looks up. "Eh.. I haven't found anything yet, both the sensors and what I see
of the computer is running fine. But viruses are just one form of interference,
there are scores of different methods of fooling a computer, trojan horses, 
backdoors, timebombs, puzzles, sneaks, it could have been anyone of those. 
It could also have been pure deception jamming, but to make such a convincing
show by that method you'd had to have a very good knowledge of our systems."
He indicates the crystal. "I hope the selftest will reveal something so that
I don't have to run it. It is one of the most effective intrusion couter-
measures programs outside purely military, and it will defeat any virus
detected up to a few weeks ago, but it is a bit 'bloodthirsty' and may
damage some legitimate..."

- ---Talisman---

A priority message prints out on the screen of _Talisman's_ main CPU.
It is accompanied with a smooth, calm, male voice, reading the words as it
prints them out.

_Attention Talisman crew.  By directive of the MasterCPU R-Alpha, your
information management system, as well as all subsequent sub-processes, have
been integrated into the greater IASC25632APRAT network.  Your system is now
functioning at 166% previous efficiency.  Do not attempt to disrupt the link,
as it is already established.  Any such action would leave your vessel in
jeopardy of a general systems failure, which at this time, would be extremely
prejudicial to your current tactical situation.  You may now communicate
directly with me, R-Alpha, _Aurora_, and _Paladin_, without use of your radio
or laser communications equipment.  Furthermore, your sensors and all other
ship operations are being handled by the integrated network, rather than
exclusively by your singular computer array._

The screen clears.

_MasterCPU R-Alpha will contact you shortly._

 ---Kingfisher/Trakh---

Upon establishment of visual communications, a powerfully built Aslan
male with a full, thick mane in full uniform turns to face the screen.
(See description to follow later.) He speaks, choosing his words with
deliberate care. "Admiral Akhouw _Tra'Ekhaul_, Admiral Nanadh," he
firmly corrects Ger. "I will overlook the impoliteness."

He then continues, "Indeed, Admiral, my information does not indicate an
infestation of any ringworld 'virus' here. It would seem that computer
operation is not at fault. To the contrary, it is reminiscent of a tactic
used by wily ship captains. I have encountered similar events in my years
of command. As you command all other ships here, the local shuttle excepted,
it would seem that it is for you to explain this incident. Such an explanation
will assist in maintaining good will between us."

"We also encountered such a fleet on our journey here, although we were
not able to positively identify the origins or purpose of that fleet."

Ger continues, "Well Admiral I am glad to hear that you don't have any
virus in your computers, but according to my second, the virus is real,
and infesting at least two of my ships. As to any deliberate phantom fleets,
if that is what your message is referring to, you have my word that I have
nothing to do with any sensor fabrications. If your ship's computer is not 
affected then possibly one of my ships' computers was compromised, we are
running diagnostics as we speak."

"It is not your word that I doubt, Admiral Nanadh.." is the mild reply.
"The facts, as I have them, clearly indicate at attempt at sensor
tampering, quite probably associated with the... (checking the holotank
readouts)... Talisman. I trust you will properly conduct your inquiry
so that I may honorably pursue matters at some future time." Akhouw
half-nods in the traditional manner of Aslan ritual.

"Speaking of ships commanded, it would be good for relations if you
could disclose the general make-up of the rest of your fleet, as an Admiral,
especially one of your obvious experience, surely could not be commanding
a single ship."

Akhouw laughs politely. "Thank you, Admiral Nanadh, for the compliment.
Certainly you do me justice, as your name is not unknown to me. I hear
your words, but truly, Admiral, you cannot expect me to give you my
secrets without permission from Khaukeairlko." Akhouw spreads his hands
wide. "What you see is what you get, Admiral Nanadh, but as for the
future..." Akhouw shrugs his shoulders and grins toothily.

"Perhaps if you could inform us of the location where you spotted the
imperial fleet, we could determine their course and if they are a possible
threat. We spotted them at Imperial Coordinates 1506/Reaver's Deep".

"Quite clearly, Admiral Nanadh, they are a threat. If we were correct in
presuming our respective incidents to have occurred with the same Imperial
or Solomani fleet, probability shows that this immense world may yet be
on their itinerary. However, our observation was approximately five eakhau
prior to your incident (that is, one of your weeks) at IC 1404/Reaver's Deep.
Clearly we have encountered *two* different fleets!"

- ---Alcyon---

	_INITIATING_CONTROLLED_OVERRIDE_OF_GALLIUM_ARSENIDE_AUGMENT_

	Warning: CRC detects thermal run-away in power supply
		- begin controlled shutdown
	Warning: shutdown spontaneously aborted
		- begin scram
	PANIC: scram failed
		- cognitive abort
        000000 000002 000023 177440 000220 037200 000000 000074
        044120 026525 054000 000000 000150 070143 073163 071400
        000000 041056 030070 027060 030000 000102 000000 000000
        000000 000000 034460 030060 027463 033460 000060 034060
        030060 034460 031464 034066 061000 000000 000000 000400
        000023 177440 000220 037060 000000 000120 001014 000413
        000002 000000 040000 000001 000001 075364 000000 021230
        000000 045460 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000
        000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 007114 000000 000000
        000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 010000 061563 064000
        000662 143540 000220 037320 000014 115334 000000 000001
        000023 177440 000220 037040 000000 000004 000000 000001
        000000 000020 040005 111000 000001 100000 000001 000000
        000000 001014 027554 064542 027544 066144 027163 066000
        027554 064542 027544 066144 027163 066072 020143 060556
        067157 072040 062570 062543 072564 062412 000000 000000
        177777 177777 027400 027000 027056 000147 062564 073544
        000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000
        000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000
        000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000
        000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000

	_BOOT_SLAVE_MODE_

	Internal Port at 0x428000
	External CONSOLE port is disabled
	Internal H-QUAD Interface - system controller at select code 7
  	Poll interrupts enabled.
	L-QUAD Interface at select code 9
	High-Speed H-QUAD Interface - system controller at select code 14
	Low Cognitive Matrix at select code 21
	High Cognitive Matrix at select code 28
	Lattice Mapped Storage at 0x56000000000000
	External Linear Mapped Storage at select code 145
	real mem  = 1676.9024 Terrabytes
	using 65536 buffers containing 687194767360 bytes of memory
	isotope-backed real-time clock
	Warning: unable to configure dump device...using primary swap instead.

	_OVERRIDE_ESTABLISHED_
	.
	.
	.

'Uhhhh!!  Damn!  I had the weirdest dream!'

	_____________________________Hello_Adrian___

'Who said that?'

	_Do_you_recognize_the_voice?___

'Well... sort of...    Nah!!  Can't be!'

	_What_can_not_be_Adrian?___

'Uh... well... you sound like *me*.'

	_That_is_correct___

'No, no, no, no, NO!  Who the hell are you, anyway?  And why is it
 so damn dark?  How about some light?'

	_It_is_dark_because_your_optic_nerves_are_damaged___They_are_
	_being_repaired___If_you_desire_light_then_just_think_about_
	_it___It_will_come_to_you_

'Where's the damn light switch?  I can't feel it.  I CAN'T FEEL IT!!
 MY GOD, I CAN'T FEEL ANYTHING.  WHAT'S GOING ON?  WHERE AM I??'

	_You_cannot_feel_anything_because_neural_propagation_will_not_
	_take_place_while_under_the_control_of_spinal_inhibitor_clamps___
	_You_are_in_a_suspension_pod___what you_know_as_a_Low_Berth___
	_on_board_your_ship___Your_biological_functions_ceased_
	___were_made_to_cease___by_you_

'Oh...'

	_You_performed_self_termination___Do_you_remember?___

'... yes.'

	_Do_you_remember_why?___

'... No.  ...No, I don't.'

	_There_was_a_great_deal_of_damage___Much_of_the_damage_has_been_
	_repaired_by_automata_placed_in_your_body_by_your_physicians_prior_
	_to_suspension___They_will_remain_in_your_body___permanently___

'Automata?'

	_Machines___Very_small___They_repaired_much_damage___under_direct_
	_supervision___

'Supervision?  Who's supervision?'

	_Mine___

'Who *are* you?'

	_That_will_become_clear_eventually___

'I don't remember...  There are holes, gaps...  Why?'

	_Do_you_understand_Short_Term_Memory?___

'No.'

	_Short_term_memory_is_volatile___iterative_propagation_paths_in_an_
	_organic_neural_network_are_not_established_for_short_term_memory___
	_The_chemical_reactions_which_establish_the_patterns_of_long_term_
	_memory___Long_Term_Potentiation_it_is_called___do_not_take_place_
	_It_is_very_complicated___Would_you_like_me_to_continue?___

'Uhhhh... no.'

	_It_is_important_that_you_understand___Portions_of_long_term_memory_
	_were_also_irretrievable___The_damage_was___extensive___Are_you_
	_certain_you_do_not_remember_why_you_chose_to_self_terminate?___
	_It_is_not_a_concept_I_understand___

'I can't think of one good reason.'

	_Unfortunate___

'Oh...  Well... I'm not so sure of that.  I suppose I should be grateful
 for everything you've done.  I feel quite... well... I suppose the best
 phrase would be 'at peace with myself'.  It's like talking in a dream,
 but *knowing* that it's a dream.'

	_Please_explain_the_concept___Dream___

'That is... difficult.  You're not a real... person, are you?  I mean,
 not human.'

	_No___

'You sound... artificial.  Too... smooth.  Too calm.  You're some kind of
 computer, aren't you?'

	_Yes___

'Hmmm.  Thought so.  Man, it's still strange being trapped in one's own
 head like this.  I wonder if anybody outside knows about me.'

	_Be_patient___They_will_discover_you_soon_enough___

'I know I should remember some... things, but they're just not there!'

	_I_am_sorry___The_damage_was_

'... extensive, yes, I understand.  Still, I remember some things that just
 don't go with anything else.  Sort of like, you know, left-overs.'

	_What_do_you_remember?___

'Just a name.  That's all.  Nothing else.  A name.'

	_What_name?___

'Lydia.'

	_Understood___

'How about you.  Have you got a name or something?'

	_Yes___

'... Well?'

	_Well___what?___

'What is it?  Your name!  What is it?'

	_Iasic___

'... I *do* know what time it is!  I have access to something...  isotope-
 backed real-time clock...  Where did *this* come from?'

	_In_order_to_facilitate_repairs_it_was_necessary_to_replace_some_
	_of_the_functionality_of_damaged_organic_components_with_comparable_
	_elements_in_your_artificial_augment___The_ties_are_now_much_more_
	_extensive_than_they_were_prior_to_your_death____

'I have been here for quite some time, haven't I?'

	_Yes___

'Hmmm.'

Time passes.

'Iasic?'

	_Yes?___

'You were right.  I just have to think about it.  There is light.  Inside,
 there is anything I want.  I recall... detailed data of the crew members.
 Was this information 'restored' during your repairs.'

	_No____According_to_the_timestamps_in_your_augment_storage___
	_this_data_was_uploaded_just_prior_to_your_shutdown___Do_you_
	_remember?___

'No... no, I *don't* remember!  It's just *there*!  It's like reading a
 book.  I *know* all of it, but I don't *remember* any of it!'

	_There_is_a_very_high_probability_that_this_will_never_change___

'Wait a minute!!  I *do* remember!  I remember people!  Farouk, 'Vouf,
van der Merwe, Abuko, Horne, Morser, Robins, Jett... I *remember*!'

	_That_is_not_biological_memory___You_are_retrieving_data_from_
	_augment_storage___The_data_is___extensive___

'I can't tell the *difference*!!'

	_You_will_learn_how_to_differentiate___in_time___

'Please, go away for a while.  I need to think.'

	_Very_well___I_will_be_here_when_you_are_ready___

Silicon memories flood back, some unbidden.  Ger... rugged middle age
juxtaposes elven ears and the air of absolute command.  Van der Merwe...
condescending, yet fiercely protective physician, who cares for the crew
like his own children.  Farouk... a shepherd of a different kind, tired
of death and of sending men to it.  Bhyarrvouf... bearer of a secret guilt
and a secret honor, searching for a glorious death, wanting nothing more
than to be remembered.  Horne... uncultured and struggling with future
shock, a dangerous foe and a steadfast friend.  Bishop... Bishop... nothing
but a name on a crew roster and a cabin assignment.  Did he *ever* really
exist?

Life after life streams by, personalities reduced to etched silicon and
micro-voltage.

More time passes.

'Iasic?'

	_Yes?_

'You... you sound different.  Less... mechanical.'

	_During our interval of separation, I developed extensive state
	 diagrams, based on your knowledge of common speech conventions. 
         I have interpolated a new speech pattern based on those state
         diagrams.  I thought it would be less 'disturbing' for you if
	 I attempted to assume a more human tone._

'Thank you.  It does sound better.  ...I think I'm ready.'

	_What are you ready for?_

'I don't know.  Whatever happens... when they come for me, I suppose.  Will
 you stay with me?'

	_Most of the time.  A small part of me will always be here.
	 Otherwise you would die again._

'...Oh.'

	_Does that disturb you?._

'... No.  I guess not...  Not really.  It was very peaceful.'

	_Then we shall wait... together._

'Thank you.'

Emotion is a chained, toothless monster.  Joy, rage, sorrow, once the
masters, are now obedient, infrequently summoned servants.  They are
seldom needed.  Now no longer at their beck and call, there is time...
time for reflection.

In the freedom of thought, it is a warm autumn day.  A gentle breeze
stirs the leaves on the ground.  Somewhere, nearby, Vivaldi is playing.
In the distance, stands a manor house, with windows smashed and broken.
Weathered and unkept for years, it's facade slumps and crumbles.  It
is no longer a fit dwelling for the living.

Bishop wanders the reclaimed estate of his mind, content, and not quite
alone.  A single companion is company enough, for now.  Soon, there will
be others.  An old oak stands alone, as a single detailed memory, where
once a forest stood.  Others still stand, but they are few and widely
scattered.  Running his hand over the bark, savoring the texture, the
richness of detail, Bishop turns his face to the sun.

Light.  Magnificent, warm, heavenly light.  Everywhere, suffusing
everything.  The darkness is banished.  It will never return.  Never.

No pain.  No fear.  Only light.

- ---The R-Alpha System---

Energy output is dramtically up all over the ringworld.  Neutrino sensors
peg themselves against their limits.

- ---Kingfisher---

Aboard the Kingfisher, events suddenly turn in a new direction.  On Abuko's
sensor console, all of the target squares begin to blink as a low buzzer
sounds. Johann breaks off the conversation immediately and checks the small
tags that have appear beside each square. "Why is everybody suddenly
starting up a small parallel powerplant, and why do all of them have the
same output?!" He wonders aloud as he starts a general scan in lack of any
other good ideas, but then the energy scan finds R-alpha....

  "Commander, R-alpha is acting up. It's radiating neutrinos like it's
trying to imitate a sun, strong enough to be noticable through the sidelobes
of the neutrino detectorpointed the other way!"
 
At this point, a strong audio-only radio signal overrides the dialog
between Ger and Akhouw with a broadcast to both ships.  (It is later
discovered that the Alcyon received the same broadcast simultaneously.)

"To all sophonts aboard the vessel Trakh/Kingfisher/Alcyon:
Please tune your FM data communication tranceiver to 1337.45
Mhz and connect your navigation console to its output."

"Navigation and landing instructions to follow."

Abuko's sensors (and those aboard the Trakh) indicate the message originates
from all points of the ring simultaneously.  The message continues.

"With your permission, I will now load navigation information into
your ships, showing you where to steer to bring you to a pleasant
location prepared several years ago for your arrival.  You should
find it quiet and recreational."

Etienne accepts the incoming navigation data and sets it up on his board,
but does NOT begin to maneuver.

"Commander Ger, orders, sir?"

The mysterious radio voice continues, "If you prefer, I can bring you
there directly."

Then, in a signal directed solely at the Kingfisher, the calm, male voice
continues:

"To the sophont in charge of this ship:"

"One of your sophonts aboard the Alcyon seems to be awakening
and recovering from a chemical accident, and his physician
is aboard your ship.  Because of recent actions, this medical
technician is unable to further help his patient."

"The Paladin, Aurora, Talisman and Alcyon are now tied together 
with an intantaneous communication network, and there are 
doctors aboard them to help the ailing sophont."

"I can authorize Iasic to connect you to this network if you
so choose, or you can remain isolated.  If you join the network,
I can provide augmented landing instructions as well."

"Iasic has been mildly chastised and will not improve your systems
beyond this without your permission."

  Johann frowns visibly when it mentions connecting a console to outside
influence and begins fingering the holocrystal, but he says nothing.

- ---Aurora/Paladin---

After a brief pause, a somewhat familiar voice returns.

"Thank your for loading that species-specific information.  The Iasic
construct is now connecting the vessel you know as 'Talisman' to
your network.  Please accept my apologies for earlier trying to 
contact you psionically.  I seem to have forgotte just how fearful
your kind is of being manipulated.  I will use the interface that
the Iasic unit constructed, for now.

"The one known as Charyn is in no danger.  Those called Limner and
Morser are well are their way to properly diagnosing her condition,
and their discovery will be of more value to you if I do not hinder
their investigations.

"The unit known as Ralf is not in immediate danger, and can be treated
when you can get to him.

"Again, welcome to this little corner of the universe.  Please follow
the shuttle to a safe landing area."

"Well! Ahem." Bhyarrvouf straightens his fur a bit. "On behalf of the
explorers of the ring, I would like to thank you for the courtesy of
your welcome. To whom am I speaking?"

"Why, I am this world.  The natives here call me a variety of things,
the Hoop, the GameMaster, Land Above, One who leads, and some not
nearly so pleasant."

'Vouf's ears wilt. "...Oh."

- ---Talisman---

Shrike over interior commo: "Hey Thule, you're the captain of this thing, got
any orders for us?  And what was that message from Vouf about?"

Said aloud to bridge crew: "Anybody got any guess as to what this ias.. 
whatever network is?"

Alliara: "Bloody computers interfering again! Why can't they make good virii
- - erase government files, for example. Why does it have to be a bloody
computer here and a bloody computer there?! 

"I WANT SAVAGES, not computers!"

Shrike: "OK Isic, or whatever your called, your got the stick, but if I call
override you give control back to me, OK?  And make sure you put all the info
I need on the screens."  With this Andon will lean back in the chair and see
what happens.

Thul replies, "Let's get this ship ready to land wherever this bloody Iasic
says to.   I gotta funny feeling the first one to start
raising hell around here is going to get themself smeared...
( as he casts a wary eye at the pips representing the Aslan ships.... )

	"We got some kinda high tech network bug infiltrating our
computers.  Don't try to unplug it is what 'Vouf told me.  And DO
NOT try jacking into it RALF!"

No answer.

"...Ralf?"

Silence.

Thul slaps the all-call. "Has anyone seen--"

"Redd here, Thul," comes Kimball's voice over the intercom. "I've found Ralf,
all right. Looks like you were a little late...."

- ---Aurora---

Distracted by his observation of Charyn's condition, a few seconds pass
before Christian realizes what has happened. His face reflects feelings
of curiosity and anticipation. He sits up in the couch and secures his
restraint harness, then plugs his vacc suit into the local life support
system and turns to the navigation controls. A few seconds of computing,
then a thin white line curves through the holotank, confirming the
flight parameters and destination point.

He looks over at 'Vouf. "Well, aenrra, looks like we've gotten an
engraved invitation to a real ringworld party by the landlord... Unless
you've an objection, I'll transfer the flight plan from the navcomp
and take us down to investigate." Christian's fingers are poised over
the holopanels, ready to begin the descent.

"NEGATIVE on that, Chief Medical Officer," Bhyarrvouf says sharply, making
a sharp cutting motion with the edge of a gauntleted hand. "In case you've
forgotten, we have been elected to the dubious honor of LAST to step onto
the ring. We have a rendezvous to make, first. My orders stand."

He looks over at Christian and his eyes twinkle. "But I WILL authorize a
change in heading so that the rendezvous occurs en route to the landing.
As long as we have a delta vee of zero with respect to the Westwind and
Gemini Arbiter, we can all match speeds with the Ring while we get 
together. Get on it, will you? With an eye on Mister Robins, of course, 
in the meantime. I'll notify the other ships."

Tweel listens groggily to the course and rendezvous changes being made.

"Dee-Dee-Dee-Dee-Dee!  If-if-if we'rrre flying forrrr the Rrrring...
I ex-ex-ex-ex-expect we'll get our answerrrrs sssssoon enough..."

His neck collapses for a moment and he lifts his head back up dizzily.

A gargling whistle sounds deep in his throat,
"How-how lllong flight?  Mussst sssleep beforrrre arrrrivalll..?"

Tweel looks unsteadily at 'Vouf for an answer and then he buries his head
in his wings and his breathing becomes more regular.  Standing motionless
on the perch, Tweel is out cold.

The intercom comes alive [sic] again:

"Here's a minimum energy course for you to follow to reach that rendezvous,
{one shows on the holo}, and here's a minimum time rendezvous that
assumes Iasic begins repairs on the Gemini Arbiter almost immediately."

"Would you please call them and ask permission?"

"Glad to," 'Vouf chuckles. He keys in the intercom.

"Westwind and Gemini Arbiter, this is Aurora. We will rendezvous in five
hours. Please alter course as follows.... <data blip> This is to allow
us to rendezvous while matching speedss with the Ringworld for a landing."

"I wonder when Iasic is going to hit the Fingkisher?" he wonders out loud.

The voice answers once more.

"I have instructed him to stay away from the Kingfisher and the Trakh.
These two ships have shut down all communication with the outside,
except with each other apparantly trying to avoid talking to me.  No
problem."

"The crew of the Gemini Arbiter is the most in need of assistance right now,
and I'd like to join them to your network.  Therefore, that is Iasic's
current assignment."

A thought suddenly occurs to Christian. "Iasic, at some future time we will
leave this system and travel elsewhere. How will this affect the network you
have constructed -- will its components operate seperately or would you need
to make further modifications?" 

Iasic, apparently in deference to the Hoop, doesn't answer, as it continues:

"One more minor matter, apparantly one of your sophonts aboard the
Alcyon is recovering from some chemical accident.  His surgeon,
Yorblin is aboard the Kingfisher and cannot contact him.  The
Alcyon is connected to this network however, and there seem to
be several biological technicians capable of mantaining his 
condition for the time being."

Bhyarrvouf's ears snap straight up at that. If he was asleep a minute ago,
it doesn't show now....

"What in the name of the Great Pack are you talking about? Doctor Yorblin 
didn't have any ongoing caseload, except Anton Devious and...."

His voice trails off. His eyes stare at nothing. He whispers, "I just had
this crazy DREAM...."

Caught dead in the middle of some navigation work, Christian's fingers
finish the task at hand as his eyebrows head as far north as is humanly
possible. As his right hand completes the transfer of the updated nav
plot to thruster control, his left hand is a blur, tapping into the
network and calling up direct control and data input of the Alcyon
sickbay, concentrating on one low berth in particular...

His voice is surprised, yet somehow relieved. "Bishop!"

- ---Talisman---

On deck two of the Talisman, in the lounge/mess area-cum-sickbay,
going over medical supplies for the umpteenth time, Ian sighs.  
"Damn fool crusaders putting scientists in sick bay.  ..Might do
more more damage than leaving the injured alone.

"Hello -- What's this?"  Ian askes himself, half cocking his head
to one side.  He pulls out a chair and sinks into it, his eyes glazing 
slightly.

- ---Phin Shuttle---

*The craft rising from the Hoop have been observed.  They have shown no hostile
intent. {The term "hostile" seems to have been a struggle to convey.}

*But it seems prudent to remove myself from any immediate confrontation.  It is
a standard reaction for us not to want unknowns on our 'flukes'. {This last
word seems to be the best translation by the recipients.}*

Suddenly Doejin's psionic message is interrupted by a new 'voice.' It
comes from the ship called the Talisman, and is directed at Ferdy.

*Ferdy!  I'd me more than overjoyed to meet your friends.  I don't
know what's going on up here.  They shoved me into sick bay in case
somebody gets hurt.   They think I know medicine.  Isn't that a 
laugh?  I can't see anything, and they don't feed any sensor
data down into the middle of the ship, where I am now.  I keep
hearing radio broadcasts about (feared-type-emotion) Aslan.
(Confusion emotion) I don't understand this.  Aslan have saved
my life more times than humans have.  Go figure.*

*Doejin?  Katie? ....Hooper, is it? Hi! 
(big smile emotion)  I'm Ian.  How're things on the Hoop?*
 
*Uhhh... hello Ian.*  Ferdy seems a little hesitant.  *Welcome back.
*It's been a long time.*
 
*Yes," says Ferdy, *the Aslan arrived not long before you did.
They've been watching the Kythui.  I don't know why.  And now
several more ships have just turned up.  Humans, I think.*
 
*Things are a little confusing at the moment.  We were told to
expect visitors, but we didn't realise there were going to be
quite so many!  Are your people going to land?  How much have
you told them about us?*
 
An aside to the other Phins:  "Can we show them a good place to
land?  Somewhere that won't be too dangerous?  How about on the
open plains near Ancient Prime?"

- ---Aurora---

"He's alive." Not daring to raise his voice for fear of waking the
sleeping Tweel, Bhyarrvouf cuts his voice back to a whisper. A tear
rolls down his muzzle. "In the Name of the Thagk-Kabra...."

"How's it possible, aenrra? There should be nothing left of him!"

After a pause of several seconds, Christian speaks, slowly, as if he
is piecing it together as he talks. "Adrian was pretty healthy, as far
as his body was considered. We got to him in time to minimize the damage
from his cardio-pulmonary arrest, so except for the brain damage and the
ravages of his multiple chemical soup addictions, his body was fine."

His eyes narrow slightly, evidence of rapid, concentrated thought occurring
in Christian's mind. "Of course, the neural damage was too extensive for
anything less than full neuro-reconstruction at a major research hospital,
so we left him pretty much as is, except for the nanocytes that Jan injected
to tidy up the worst of the damage and stabilize his pathways. Hmm..."

Christian leans back in his seat, finger to lips as his eyes gaze at nothing
in particular, the picture of thoughtfulness. He reaches his conclusion in
nearly a minute. As if a light switch were thrown, Christian's features
are suddenly illuminated with discovery, silently screaming EUREKA!

He snaps his right hand and delightedly, playfully gives 'Vouf a light
whack on the shoulder. "That's *it*!" he says in an excited whisper, out
of respect for Tweel's desperate need for sleep. He turns to look right
at 'Vouf, his right index finger stabbing at an empty spot on his console,
as if to emphasize his points. "Listen, aenrra, we've ran into this Iasic
'construct' that can *rewire* computer systems, right? So what did Jan put
into Adrian? Nanocytes! Little, minute machines, for rukh's sake! Besides,
what *IS* the brain but a complex, ORGANIC machine, a computer? That's got
to be it -- someway, somehow, it(?) got to Adrian, and REWIRED him! It's
as if a computer's software was corrupted but the hardware was sound -- all
you'd have to do is fix the programming!"

Some of his initial excitement seems to have worn off Christian, as he takes
on a more serious pose. "Of course, the question is, WHO is coming back? I
mean, I could understand how a little thing like death could change a person.
He may have some problems with memory, and who knows how his personality may
have changed." He glances at 'Vouf. "He may be a quite new version of Adrian
Bishop, unlike what we knew..." His eyes wander over to the twin medical
readouts of Charyn and Adrian. "A pity, that. I would have wanted to know
why Adrian refused the offer to slowly reduce the need for his addictions,
the help that would have made the transition slow but sure, without real
pain or harship. As if a drowning man refused a floatation device that was
thrown to him... I wouldn't have forced him, but I don't think anyone had
ever offered him the choice, the chance to take control. He didn't just
say no, he said no, period."

Christian folds his arms as he leans back against the couch, as his eyes
gaze out into space in the direction of the Alcyon.

'Vouf looks thoughtful after Christian's speech. "Hrmph." He reaches
over to the comm panel and keys in the Alcyon's tight-beam heading.

"Morgan, this is 'Vouf. Have Dr. Werner check on Adrian Bishop, OK? Out."

He then says to no one in particular, "Iasic, how extensive has your 
interaction with Bishop been?"

Iasic has no time to answer....

A deafening high-pitched shriek-whistle blasts out of the stillness.
The ceiling rings under a sudden double blow as Tweel suddenly tries
to take flight.

'Vouf and Christian simply stare as Tweel is suddenly looking back at
them, his wings spread showing the now red eyespot scars.  "Macin?..."
The word dies on his beak.

He gives a hateful glance at the ceiling and buries his head in his wings
again.

Carefully and with exaggerated slowness, Vouf smooths down his fur, which
was standing on end all the way down his back. "I HATE when he does that,"
he growls in Vuakedh.

- ---Talisman---

Dave has been sitting in the crew lounge, alternately putting on and taking
off his vacc suit helmet.  :-) Seriously, he wasn't asked to go anywhere and
has been spending his time tapped into the ship's computer trying to
retrieve any available information about R-alpha and natives.

Now that we finally have an order to put on vacc suits (I seem to recall
going to general quarters [vacc suits] once before and having it cancelled),
Dave will re-attach his vacc suit helmet and check connections.  If he can
be made use of on the bridge, call him.  He is an expert in covert survey
and initial contact.  He doesn't speak Aslan, however.  

If Dave isn't needed on the bridge, he will continue futzing around with the
computer link.

- ---Phin Shuttle---

Having manuevered perpendicular to as many of the foreign ships as possible,
the crew of the phin shuttle settle back and watch for any hostile actions to
take place.

Communication with the Hoop (though no obvious EM transmissions are detected)
indicates to the Phin crew that things are well in hand and a trajectory to the
surface has been laid down.  But to expedite everyone's arrival, the Phin
shuttle is directed to assist the ship called Westwind to it's rendevous.

At that the Phin shuttle picks up acceleration beyond any that has been
seen by Aslan or Human (or Vargr).  Heading toward the Westwind with
interception _very_ shortly.

*After consultation, we are going to assist the ship called Westwind in their
rendevous with you and the Gemini Arbiter.  The Westwind moves too slowly for
events.  I shall see you at the Gemini Arbiter shortly.*

- ---Talisman---

An archway appears just in front of the aft bulkhead doorway in
the Talisman's mess area, and the the top third briefly glows
a pale greeninsh-blue.

"All expedition members, I'm going over to the Phin shuttle.  See you
on the surface.  Thomas out."

Ian steps through the archway, and it disappears.

- ---Trakh---

Pausing in his conversation with Ger, Akhouw turns once again to
the holotank and considers the plotted decent path, then looks over
and observes Aiwi and Uhwaikh as they note and analyze the rapidly
incoming information. Muttering "Kiy, rakhea tiykoi... (The secrets
of this place, perhaps we shall learn now...)" he turns back to the
vid pickup.

"It seems that we are invited, you and I, to land on the ringworld.
Certainly it is a chance to answer questions I am sure both of us
have, Admiral Nanadh. May I have the pleasure of meeting you upon
our landing?"

Assuming that Ger responds positively, Akhouw ends the communications
with a polite "We shall meet later, then. Good day, Admiral" before
setting into his seat and verifying the navigational plot. "Fa'eairl,
condition normal, stand down." As the lighting shifts to normal, the
power plant similarly returns to usual conditions.

"Uhwaikh, re-restablish secondary interlocks and put weapons power on
standby. Continue observations of ringworld sensor data."

As the Trakh begins its gentle descent to the specified landing area,
Akhouw opens a laser channel to the pinnace. "Eihoftyah, we are proceeding
to land on the ringworld and make contact with advanced indigenous sophonts
and likely these humans as well. Continue to observe the [Turnskaad] fleet
and enter "Ringworld High Guard" position above us. Stand down from alert
but remain vigilant. Trakh out."

A directional radio broadcast reaches out to the Aslan speeder. "This is
Admiral Tra'Ekhaul. We are proceeding to a rendesvouz with ringworld
inhabitants and the human fleet at coordinates (here he passes along the
received navigational data). Continue your mission. The Khaurl will stand
ready for communications or other assistance. Acknowledge, Hfolraw. Trakh
out."

- ---Phin Shuttle---

At the contact with Ian, Doejin's curiosity about the visitors is at a peak.
First, Bharyvouf, and now Ian.  Plus, Ferdy's excitation is catching.  But
indications from the Hoop are that the ship called Gemini Arbiter needs help
and that the ship called Aurora is going to their aid.  But that leaves the
ship called Westwind still trying to catch up.

With Ian's indication of extreme boredom, Doejin makes a rash decision (best
kind for a Phin! :-), maneuvers out of the pilot console and maneuvers over
to an auxiliary console.

With the quick flash of flukes and mind control, the auxiliary panel lights
up and acitvates the Door.

An archway appears in the aft section of the command room of the phin shuttle.
It is sized sufficient for a Phin to maneuver through.

{Meanwhile a similar archway appears in the sickbay of the Talisman...}

Within a few seconds a human walks through the archway.  He is smiling and
greets Ferdy, "Hello and very good to see you!!  Doejin, I presume?" And he
sticks a hand out to Doejin who looks at it with a very curious look...

- ---Aurora---

The voice of the Hoop speaks once more:

"Is there anything you'd care for me to do to prepare in any special way
for your landing?"

Bhyarrvouf gets a gleam in his eye at that, one that Christian has seen
before, usually in the company of wanted posters and pink and yellow fur.....

Bhyarrvouf begins to giggle. "I am such a CREEP!"

Christian snaps his head around and looks at 'Vouf with a look on his face
that indicates he's unsure of what's going on, and not at all sure he'll like
the answer. When he speaks, his tone is reminiscent of a parent talking to
a misbehaving child, gentle but alert. "Bhyarrvouf, what have you *done*?"

Bhyarrvouf chuckles. "If you'll excuse me, I have to contact the Gemini
Arbiter about our course change...." 

Christian stares blankly at 'Vouf for a second, then turns to his pilot
station and begins the necessary course corrections to establish the new
rendezvous/ringworld landing flight path.

As he works, Christian seems to be singing some sort of Terran ditty as he
goes about his navigation and sensor tasks. If someone listens very closely,
they would swear the refrain goes something like...

"....and only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the mid-day sun..."

"Mad dogs? Might that, perchance, be a reference to yours truly?"
Bhyarrvouf bounds out of his chair cheerfully. "Gahh. Your problem,
aenrra, is that you lose your sense of humor when you're under stress.
If anything, you should be MORE able to laugh when things get tough!
And if that makes me a 'mad dog', well, then, so be it."

Christian smiles as he continues to monitor the various stations, in an
analogous mood. "That *was* a joke, aenrra..." He amusedly eyes 'Vouf.
"You better than most should understand that I have a perfectly functioning
sense of humor. Besides, better a Mad Dog than Voufie the Wonder-Pooch, eh?"
His grin widens markedly.

'Vouf looks fondly over at the sleeping Tweel. "Exhausted," he mutters.
"You've gotten some sleep, and I've had a short nap, but he was up the
whole time, and that just after an operation. Well, I have one or two
more things to do before I can put my nose under my tail.... and I think
the Ring is going to help me do them!"

He grins at Christian. "That big krafla-hoop out there reads minds. It
does it easily, and has a pretty good idea of how to best achieve the
aims of the person it's reading...."

And with that, as if on cue, an arched, glowing doorway silently shimmers
into shape at the back of the Bridge, just behind 'Vouf. "Ah, just in time," 
he says, checking his gear and straightening his uniform. "Don't wait
up for me, aenrra," he says gaily, stepping forward. "I'm going to the
Gemini Arbiter. Back soon!"

And with that, the archway fades and is gone.

Christian is unfazed by the sudden turn of events. He contents himself with
a brief reply. "Just make sure they've had their shots, aenrra. Oh, one
other thing, I understand they're diplomats and I realize just how
entertaining they can be (irony alert), so if you *MUST* shoot them, try
to use tranqs, ok?" It is such a perfect dead-pan delivery that 'Vouf almost
isn't sure that Christian is joking...

Christian turns back to operating his ship, enjoying the rare opportunity of
late for a little peace and quiet aboard the Aurora. Happily whistling to
himself, he takes the opportunity (while no crisis is looming and he has
a couple hours to fill) and returns to a long interrupted computer analysis
of his last game of dhrage. His mind revels in the chance to put the current
matters of import aside and work on some truly recreational activity.

- ---Talisman---

Ralf finds that the transfer to _Paladin's_ model/10 is simpler than
expected. Much to his surprise, the system is ever so much more
complex... yet it is most definitely simpler in its operation. 

	Hmm.... Ralf mused to himself.  Much more sophisticated OS,
but quite elegant in execution...  I wonder what would happen if I
applied that to my heuristics re-integration algorithm... looks so
simple, but then in hindsight many great advances seem so...

Everything now functions as if it were part of a living, breathing entity.

	A gentle wind plucks at the edges of Ralf's cybernetic attention.
*Why do I feel like somebody's breathing over my shoulder...?* 
 
After a brief pause, a channel is offered to this electronic Gulliver.  With
some trepiditation, Ralf makes the connection.

	*Whoa!  Like, wow man, look at all the pretty colors!  I haven't
felt this way since I plugged a simulation of Lysergic Acid biochemical
interactions into my implant chip.  A breathtaking rush of knowledge, of
perspectives destroyed and recreated.  Reminds me of that cataclyst cult.
What did they call that drug... "shatter"?  Used it to "mind-assassinate"
their opponents.  It certainly cleaned my clock...*

_You now have a communication path which you can use to communicate with
me normally.  I apologize if I caused you any discomfort.  This path is
involatile.  As long as you do not disconnect it yourself from your end,
nor I from mine, we will be able to establish contact.  If you wish, you
may withdraw from this environment and return to Talisman.  Our communic-
ation will not be broken by this.  Given the current tactical situation,
it would perhaps be advisable for you to withdraw back to the refuge of
your vessel._

	Ralf spends a few more femtoseconds looking around the
restructured model/10, then does a datadump of the diagnostics output 
and information-structures.  *Some EXTREMELY interesting conceptual
structures here.  If I ever find another computer that can run them,
they could revolutionize information technology...*

	Relucantly, Ralf implements a server-agent and retires across the
data-umbilical to the Talisman.

	*Who... what ARE you?  What is your substance?  Where are you
from?  What is the solution to Fermat's last theorem?*

- ---On R-Alpha---

Hfolraw grounds the speeder in the clearing he has selected, quickly
brings up a communications console, and opens a maser link to the
Trakh.

"Hfolraw here, Admiral.  Message acknowledged.  We are preparing to
contact one of the primitives. My new coordinates follow.  Sir, we
have detected a massive increase in neutrino output.  I cannot
localize the source, but my instruments are indicating a huge power
plant somewhere in the plane of the ring.  Unless you have further
orders, we will proceed to intercept the primitive.  Speeder out."

- ---Gemini Arbiter---

"Aurora. We have received your message and are taking appropriate
precautions."

"No need to worry about us making any hostile actions towards anyone.
Once your systems are back on line you'll see why when you scan us."

"We will stay on the intercept course with you until we rendezvous.
However, due to your current situation we will remain isolated."

"We will also express our concern to the Westwind."

"Gemini Arbiter. Out."

A: "Well, now that the warnings are taken care of we'd better start
   checking out this ship ourselves."

N: "Among everything else you've gotten us into this really does it!
   Some alien virus ransacking our computer! Just what we need!"

A: "Nicky, look at this." (pointing to one of the display monitors).

N: "I'll put it on the main holo. . .

A: (turning to face Nicky and interrupting her ) "What do you mean
   ME getting us into this!"
  
   (meanwhile, the entity known as Iasic is busy integrating itself
    unobserved by the two arguing sisters)

A: ". . .You were the one that wanted to fix that stupid door!" 

N: (standing up and placing her hands on hips) "Now wait a minute!
   We agreed to perform the routine maintenance ourselves! You were
   the one to run into that asteroid!"

A: (equally, standing up and placing hands on hips) "What's this WE
    stuff! You're supposed to be the engineer. Besides, I wasn't 
    the one to ignore the warning signs while we were on Rhylanor
    that time!"

N: (abruptly falling into her seat) "That's not fair! How was I
   to know they were monitoring us! I . . "

At this point, the Gemini Arbiter's comm panel crackles to life.

_As per MasterCPU R-Alpha's directive, the vessel _Gemini Arbiter_ has now
been connected into the network.  I must explain that R-Alpha and Bishop are
not directly interlinked, as are the _Aurora_, _Paladin_, _Talisman_, and
_Gemini Arbiter_.  They are passively connected, however.  Their interaction
is conducted directly through my internal processors._

_The four interlinked vessels are now completely integrated.  The functions of
each ship being shared by the computers on board any one of the craft,
depending upon which system can best handle the task._

There is a moment of dead silence as both sisters turning to face the
bridge console.

A: "Well, so much for our security! Any bright ideas now?!"

N: "Lets talk to it!" (punching keys and looking at monitors)

A: (throwing hands into the air)
   "That's obvious! Since we probably can't do anything else!"

N: "This is very interesting. I've managed to partially figure out
   what it did since we already had the programs running."

   (straightening up in the chair and putting on her best
   diplomatic persona)

   "Welcome to the Gemini Arbiter. I am Nicole Xerxes, Chief 
   Consul Interspecies Linguistic Interpretation and Analysis, and
   this is my sister Aurelia, Chief Consul Historical Perspectives
   and Social Analysis"

A: "Wow! Aren't we the professional!"

   [ will assume that Iasic introduces itself (does it recognize
    sarcasm?) ]

   ( Professionalism, now gone by the wayside. Female inquisition
    takes over. :-) )

N: "So Iasic, how is your ..er... integration into our computers
   going to affect our ship operations?  Will we still have control
   over our vessel?  Are you able to prevent us from taking certain
   actions?  Can we still maneuver the ship?  To a destination of
   our choice?  Are you...."

A: "Hey!! Comm Hog!! I have questions too, you know!!"

N: "Well then ask them!  Stop lambasting me!!"

A: "Are you in continuous contact with your main cpu? Are you 
   telepathic? Since you seem to have physically rearranged some of
   the systems you must have some sort of telekinetic powers?
   What can you tell us about R-Alpha? How many sapients are there?
   Since you've probably integrated into our historical and
   linguistic computer are there languages on R-Alpha that we don't
   have? And if so could we get them? How. . ."

N: "Now who's the comm hog! I. . ."

Aurelia and Nicole's conversation is interrupted by a polite "Ahem."

Standing behind them in a crouch, a massive Gauss pistol in each hand, is
a Vargr with stunning black and white fur, piercing blue eyes and a black
and grey uniform of an unrecognizable type. A blood-red data monocular
is dropped over one eye, and a thin, barely visible beam of laser light
from the muzzle of each gun is touching each woman's forehead.

"Am I addressing," the Vargr says politely, "The sisters Xerxes?"

===========================================================================

END OF TURN 92.00

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

